I understand that. The whole point is to delay Japan for 1 turn in the beginning. I don’t expect to have allied territory in Asia by J3. I also would not attack you if you had a capital ship for protection, but isn’t that the point? I made you buy one or have one sit behind on the first turn just by threat, not even action. I don’t have to use the bomber, do I? I just made you do something suboptimal though!
Actually, no you don’t understand. You have to stage those bombers forward for this threat to be valid. And for UK to get it’s bomber in range, it has to do so via non-combat in UK1. If you do that, I leave or build a capital ship in SZ60. Otherwise, my trannies are safe, and I’ll see bombers coming at least a round ahead, and then I can counter. So unless you give up using your bomber, I get to use all of my capital ships in J1. Pick your poison.
I don’t think you’re even looking at the gameboard, this comment is so off. At the end of turn 2 I have
UK –> 2 transports (3 quite usually since people don’t take that chance that you do with the atlantic navy) that have 2 inf 2 tank in them + 1 or more fighters
US --> 4 transports with 4 infantry + 3 tank + 1 artillery + 3 fighters + 1 bomber
All in Algeria. Which means I can strike at Western Europe and Southern Europe with my transports.
No, actually it means you have those forces there DEPENDENT on those transports. Lose the transports, and you lose the ability to even REACH Europe with those forces without either building new trannies, or fighting your way to Europe via North Africa and the Middle East.
Med fleet, plus aircraft, plus any remaining subs… I may not kill your whole fleet, but those trannies are going to be sinking. And all I need to do is get 3-4 of them and your amphib of Europe is HISTORY for Turn 3. Plus your forces cannot attack TOGETHER. That means I get to face them one at a time, meaning far fewer loses for Germany from each round of combat, meaning more Allied forces dead in yuour D-Day landing.
Also, you get those forces into Africa on UK 2 and US 2 respectively. That means that I still get my G3 build AND attacks on you before either UK or US can move against Europe. Tranny attack, plus some INF to guard Southern. Your figs are only useful in Western (unless you brought an AC along) and you’ll face AA fire there (lose a fig).
And if you take it? Then I have a 40+IPC build from G3 to kick your butt out on G4, with your fleet out of position to pick up forces for the second landing (unles you moved back into the Atlantic, taking the Southern risk away).
So what is the BEST case for you?
You take Western in either UK3 or US3. You lose it on G4. Meanwhile, Germany started out with force superiority in Europe, and has continued to INCREASE it during G1, G2 and G3. Germany is outbuilding Russia by approximately 40%. By the end of T4, the allies are kicked out of France, Japan has forces adjacent to Russia in the East, and Germany has a significant numerical suprtiority over Russia, and has probably taken Caucuses, Karelia, Archangel, and maybe Kazakh. A G4 INF build to defend Germany against losing their capital, a strike on Russia, with a follow-up strike by Japan if needed… Russia is out oif it. And if not, they get to build a whole 2-3 INF to prepare for a repeat performance in T5.
Once Russia falls, then I can kick you out of Norway, solidify my position in Europe as Germany, and then prepare for Sea Lion.
Germany has had 2 full rounds of free time against Russia, but suddenly that’s the end of it. If you do not immediatley pull back the troops you built on G1 to protect southern/western europe, you’re screwed! That means you only had the first round of purchases to use freely against Russia since the second round of purchases has to fend off a third round attack.
Oh, and the US bomber actually needs TWO turns to get to where it can reach SZ60, if Japan takes Bury and China in either J1 or J2. Can;t reach from Hawaii or Midway. Unless of course you take Wake, then it can reach. But alas, even if you took Wake in US 1, the bomber can;t land there until US2, which means US 3 before you can use it against SZ60.
You should get your facts straight. The bomber goes:
1 –> up to eastern canada
2 --> to western canada
3 --> to sz63
4 --> to sz62
5 --> attack sz60
6 --> land in buryatia
And I told you that I TAKE Bury in J1, using Manchuria forces, plus forces trannied in. No place to land that bomber for US1.
If I force you to buy a destroyer, than I have accomplished more than I ever intended. I didn’t even have to attack, and I cost you 12 IPCs. Of course I’m not going to attack you if you built some defense, but you missed the point - I made you buy something that’s absolutely worthless to your cause just because I made a ghost threat!
And I told you that you have to WASTE that bomber doing only non-comabt moves on UK1 to get it to where it IS a threat. And if I see that coming, I don;t have to BUILD a Destroyer, just leave some forces in place, or move some existing forces. YOU hve to make the first move by non-combating your bomber to Sinkiang in UK1. Otherwise, Japan has no bombers to fear (US can;t land in Bury, and UK needs a round to get close first)
And if you do move that bomber to Sinkiang in UK1, you will get to use it on me… ONCE. Sinkiang is toast in J2. If you reinforce it so that it survives, you are losing a lot more than Sinkiang.
But pulling that bomber out of Europe hurts you in SO MANY more ways than having Japan use one modest Capital ship to defend their trannies… no SBR of Germany, no extra “4” for your attack on Western, no long range combat aircraft in Europe…
No, actually it means you have those forces there DEPENDENT on those transports. Â Lose the transports, and you lose the ability to even REACH Europe with those forces without either building new trannies, or fighting your way to Europe via North Africa and the Middle East.
Ohhh man. If you’d like to trade probably most of your fighter fleet for some transports……
Let’s base this on your attack in the Atlantic where you lost 1 figher and 1 bomber and I have lost 1 transport:
Your attack is 1 battleship + 1 transport + 5 fighters (3 hits on average)
My defense is:
1 fully loaded carrier, 1 half loaded carrier, 1 battleship, 2 destroyers, and 6 transports (close to 6 hits on average).
So in the first round you lost 1 transport + all your fighters, and at this point I might not even choose to lose transports; I might just lose destroyers because I know your attack force has completely run out of gas. You’re mathematically committing suicide.
And it’s like you don’t think that the US/UK are still building this entire time. They will have more transports and equipment coming in.
Look, Tri, I see what you are trying to get across… that Japan has to protect it’s trannies.
But the truth is, no they don’t, not unless the Allies use major forces to go after those trannies.
In J1, I take Bury. 6 Russia INF against a Japan trannied artillery and INF, 2 INF form Manchuria, plus AF, and plus a BB if I decide to keep it handy. This leaves me week in Bury, but with no Russia forces in SFE or Yak to take back.
I build trannies in SZ61, safe from anything except your UK bomber if you flew it in to Sinkiang on UK1. If you did, I place my units in SZ60, allowing direct landings in Bury for the march on Russia. That is out of range of your UK bomber, and is vulnerable only to the US bomber if it stages to Midway or Hawaii on US1. If they do, I move my forces to SZ61 and invite your bomber to fly over my trannies and capital ship.
On J1 I can build 3 trannies plus 2 INF. I can fill my trannies grabbing forces from Ok, Wake and Phillipines. Or I can build 2 trannies with art and INF, leave the island forces intact to protect from remaining Allied fleet, and go from there.
As Japan, I start out with 2 BB, 2 AC’s, 1 with 1 fig, 1 with 2 figs, 2 trannies, a sub and a destroyer.
Against that, the Allies have
UK 1 AC with 1 fig, 2 trannies, 1 Sub and 1 destroyer
US 1 AC with 1 fig, 1 tranny, 1 sub, 1 BB, 1 destroyer.
You are out-classed by Japan by 1 BB, 1 fig. In exchange you have 1 extra tranny and an extra destroyer (in Panama) and an extra sub.
Add in Japan’s ground based AF, and the fact that the US BB, tranny and Destroyer are out of range to participate in T1 moves on Japan (unless Japan goes to Pearl) and it is obvious that Japan can toast the Allied Pacific fleet.
And I can do this while still keeping a degree of protection for my trannies that I am using for building up Asia.
The only way to prevent this is for the US to send forces into the Pacific, and to do so with some significant impetus.
THAT means that Germany will have only UK and Russia to worry about in Europe (other than some minor initial US forces).
And it’s like you don’t think that the US/UK are still building this entire time. They will have more transports and equipment coming in.
Yes, I know they are building… in UK which is 1 move away, and in the US that is TWO moves away.
All I am doing is BUYING TIME for Germany’s land forces.
If I hold you off 3 full rounds, and allow the economics of Germany v Russia to kick in, Russia is toast.
And once I get Russia, then US and UK can keep sending forces til their heart is content. Germany will be building at mid 50’s IPC’s, Japan in the 40’s. Allies lose.
And I told you that I TAKE Bury in J1, using Manchuria forces, plus forces trannied in. Â No place to land that bomber for US1.
That is entirely true, but let’s take a look at the big picture.
3 inf + 1 arm isn’t going to win against 6 infantry. You have to bring in 2 fighters against a stacked Buryatia to make the battle a 60% chance for you to win. That isn’t even that good of a chance. Perhaps now you have to bring in a bomber from Japan which otherwise would have been used Pearl Harbor?
Consequently, those 2 fighters used against Buryatia had to come from somewhere. You will now be unable to take China efficiently unless you bring 2 fighters from the Indies fleet.
Now that you don’t have those 2 fighters from the east indies fleet, it is foolhardy to try kill the suicidal UK fleet sitting in Kwantung, unless you choose to use fleets otherwise needed to kill Pearl Harbor. Then Pearl Harbor survives
I think my overall point is that with a couple of maneuvers, you force Japan to make decisions that slows him down some. Your individual counters are correct but you cannot cover everything. And you still haven’t addressed how you plan to take Pearl Harbor if I sunk the solomon islands sub and landed the british fighter on the carrier, also in relation to my stacking 6 infantry in buryatia and the UK bomber in sinkiang.
And you still haven’t addressed how you plan to take Pearl Harbor if I sunk the solomon islands sub and landed the british fighter on the carrier, also in relation to my stacking 6 infantry in buryatia and the UK bomber in sinkiang.
The short answer?
In Classic I have been an advocate of NOT doing Pearl. So the US masses it’s fleet to send against Japan. After killing UK’s fleet I do the same. Massive naval battle, that Japan wins being on the defensive with better fighter/carrier numbers.
US consolidtes fleet and adds to it? No problem! My trannies are still working overtime on Asia… 4 rounds is all I ask.
US sends fleet to Atlantic? Great! No threat in the Pacific then. 3 rounds til they get there, 4 to be of any use. Russia is toast, or nearly so. Japan turns on US, Germany starts on UK. Economics show who wins these battles oince Russia is gone.
Your concept of timing is very much off. You speak with no experience in the revised verion at all; have you even completed one game? I speak with half a years of experience and many actual games played. Russia will not fall in 4 rounds, unless the Allies are the complete idiots that you make them out to be.
In Classic I have been an advocate of NOT doing Pearl. So the US masses it’s fleet to send against Japan. After killing UK’s fleet I do the same. Massive naval battle, that Japan wins being on the defensive with better fighter/carrier numbers.
The US players suck if they’re running straight into you. If I’m amassing a fleet against Japan, I go down to Solomon Islands. Suddenly Japan can’t afford to play defense since 4 islands are in jeapordy - the mainland, boreno, phillippines, and east indies. If Japan defends one of them, you can be sure the US will go elsewhere and nail the IPCs from you. So Japan has to attack before the US takes islands…
I know this sounds weird, but I do not use many of the strategies that I’ve been discussing usually. I mainly talk about them to show you that Japan cannot do everything if the Allies make a few maneuvers (pearl harbor, china, india, buryatia, protect transports). One of those has to be given up. In your case, it is Pearl Harbor.
My usual Allied strategy is to completeley abandon India and Buryatia on turn one. And I still win about 50% of the time. This isn’t against idiot Japan players either; they are constantly loading troops onto the mainland and making complexes to churn out mass tanks when they reach production limits on the mainland. You just have no clue about what’s going on in the Atlantic, as your suicide against the turn 2 combined allied navy shows.
THE BOMBERS ARE IN RANGE TO ATTACK BY TURN TWO. IF you dontbelieve me LOOK at the board.
If you guys want to play together, use www.flames-of-europe.de download Abattlemap V0.79 and make an account. Its totally free and it comes with everything you need. Post if you have any questions.
I prefer 8 inf. in Yakut. Those 2 extra IPC are not worth taking the amphib hits and the aerial attacks. If you defend in Yakut at least those fighters won’t travel back to the carriers.
THE BOMBERS ARE IN RANGE TO ATTACK BY TURN TWO. IF you dontbelieve me LOOK at the board.
Yes, UK’s can be in range of SZ61 for UK2. But if Japan takes Bury, the US bomber can;t be in a position to attack SZ60 before US3. It can reach SZ61 in US 2, but then the UK bomber can;t reach SZ61.
And then of course, you have a potential Japan strike on Sinkiang in J2, taking out the UK bomber…
Japan will not be taking Bry since theres 6 russian infantry there. Japan has but one transport and it will not do the job on J1. If japan builds transports on J1, Japan has to build an extra naval unit to protect them, and if japan spends its whole lot on naval units then the bomber does not have to attack, and can fly to russia for further movements. Either way you win…
Japan will not be taking Bry since theres 6 russian infantry there. Japan has but one transport and it will not do the job on J1. If japan builds transports on J1, Japan has to build an extra naval unit to protect them, and if japan spends its whole lot on naval units then the bomber does not have to attack, and can fly to russia for further movements. Either way you win…
Um, excuse me but…
Tranny: 1 INF, 1 ARM
1 BB support shot
2 INF from Manchuria
1 FIG from Japan
1 BOM from Japan
That is the BASIC load against Bury in J1
Attack: 1 4 once; 3 1’s, 2 3’s, 1 4.
Attacker: First round 17 and 5 pieces, subsequent rating 13 and 5 pieces
Defender: 12 and 6 pieces
Round 1:
Lose 1 INF to BB (no return fire)
Lose 2-3 INF from the first round of fire.
Lose 1-2 on the Defense
We’ll go best case for Russia, 2 kills by Japan forces after BB, and 2 by Russia on Defense
2nd Round:
Lose 2 Russia INF
Russia kills 1
Now we have 1 Japan tank, 1 fig, and 1 bomber against 1 INF.
Even if the INF hits it’s last attack, I lose the fig, the tank takes Bury, and Russia has NO FORCES anywhere in the area to defend. In J2, Japan blitzes SFE and takes Yakut. Russia can move forces to Evenk and Novo from Russia in R2 (at least 2 less INF facing Germany now).
Using this method, Japan drops it’s build of 2 trannies and land forces in SZ60. 3 trannies and a BB against 1 bomber. Yes, you will sink 1, then your bomber is dead.
UK bomber can;t reach SZ61 from Sinkiang.
My trannies keep sending forces to Asia, and Russia has a problem…
You’re only counter is to send the Hawaii fleet against my trannies IF I did not kill it/weaken it. Your initial strike of an AC, 2 figs, and a sub against a 2 hit BB and 3 trannies is a close to even fight (I take 1 hit on the BB to sneak, and 1 hit from the figs, you lose the sub. I lose a tranny to figs, you lose a fig, I lose another tranny, you lose last fig. I sink AC, with 1 tranny remaining, and BB is repaired at end of battle). And even if you did somehow kill my Japan fleet in US1, your remaining fleet gets smashed by my AF and remaining Japan naval forces (after they crushed the UK fleet, which would happen if I ignored Pearl).
Then I float some nice new trannies in J2, protected by other Japan Capital ships that sailed back to SZ60 or 61, and the only navy in the Pacific off the west coast of the US, 1 BB, 1 DEST, 1 TRAN…
If you do that, how are you gonna kill pearl and the scattered british fleet??? they will combine and be a pain in the AA. My strat wins either way =]
Wow, spirited debate, and too much to comment on piece by piece, but the short answer is this, and forgive me for oversimplifying…
Many, many experienced players have messed with this game since it came out. The general consensus is that the Axis needs a small bid to maintain game balance. It’s hard to argue with thousands of playtesters who have spent hundreds of hours playing coming to the same conclusion.
Yes Japan can become beastly. But in this version the result is an emasculated Germany, if two seasoned players are going head to head.
My advice is to play decent opponents for 10 games or so and see what happens. If you’re kicking everyone’s a** with Japan everytime then maybe you know something the rest of us don’t. And in that case you can come back and fill us all in.
@88:
My advice is to play decent opponents for 10 games or so and see what happens. If you’re kicking everyone’s a** with Japan everytime then maybe you know something the rest of us don’t. And in that case you can come back and fill us all in.
Well, right now, Trihero and I are doing a game to look at some of the options.
I am inexperienced in the new version, so have made a few strategic errors (one of them VERY costly for Germany’s navy), and Trihero has eased off on Japan perhaps a bit more than is prudent in the early part of T1.
Game is still in progress, and the R2, G2, UK2 moves are going to set the tone of whether or not my ideas are viable at all. Japan is proceeding well according to my ideas (including taking out the naval forces at Pearl, but pulling back to Wake to avoid continental US air force retaliation)
Tri and NC.
You 2 should play each other.
Tri, you be the Allies and show 'em how it’s done.
NC, you be the Axis and demonstrate Japan’s crushing power.
Well, I think there is a lot of talking beside each others. I would still like to see the specifc moves that let the japanes take Bury, assault Pearl harbour, India, UK fleet & China in the first two turn without gambling heavy on luck with the dices. :-)
Imagine first move: The sub outside Solomon island is destroyed, New guinea and/or Borneo is captured (2 Inf each from Australia and India) and Pearl Harbour is reinforced with a british fighter. The Russian has reinforced Sinkiang with two Inf and has assembled 4 inf in Yak and 2 inf in Bry(Bry and Far is considered lost anyway but that is only 2 IPC anyway). The Trannies outside kwang-tung is sunk by a UK Carrier & Destroyer. India still has 2 Inf (1 from Persia)
Give me your specific japanese moves for J1 and we will take if from there…
I also agree that Tri & NC should play a game or two at www.daak.de and report how it went…
Tri and NC.
You 2 should play each other.
Tri, you be the Allies and show 'em how it’s done.
NC, you be the Axis and demonstrate Japan’s crushing power.
We did… And Japan played VERY well, but my Germany was NOT up to par…
There are 2 threads in the Games section (the first game you can disregard, it was my first ever game of Revised, and I lost Berlin in Turn 2). Then second shows better how I use my Japan forces…
