US 1 Purchases

[Guest]

@cystic:

Switch
Usually i play Russia Restricted, so Karelia ends up with 19 inf, 2 ftrs, and 2 arm after R1.  It’s a foolish (or absolutely fiendishly brilliant) Germany who goes up against this.

OK, let me check my math (since I screwed up earlier).
You have 21 2’s, 2 4’s, and your AA in Karelia after R1.

In a MAXIMUM load against Karelia (assuming RR as you posted above), Germany brings:
11 INF, 7 tanks, 5 fighters, 1 bomber
This is ALL units in Finland, Eastern and Ukraine, plus German and Southern tanks, 2 German INF via transport, plus all fighters and the bomber.
Average AA will kill 1 fighter.  Let’s say 2 just to make it interesting.
So I attack with 11 1’s, 10 3’s, and a 4.

Your defense total is 50
My attack total is 45

Advantage Russia.

But, while your attacks in the first rounds of the battle are killing my 1’s, my attacks are killing your 2’s.
the VAST majority of your defense are 2’s (33% chance of a hit) while the majority of my attack forces are 3’s, 50% chance.

Battle Round 1, I kill 2 units with INF, 5 with armor and fighter, and probably 1 with bomber.
You kill 6 with INF and amor, and probably 2 with your fighters.

Going into round 2 your defense total is down to 34
But my attack strength is still 37, now superior to yours.

Round 2 I miss with my INF (50-50 chance) and hit 5 with tanks and fighters, and again 1 with bomber.
You kill 2 with INF/Armor and 2 with fighters

So now you have blown through my cannon fodder and killed one of my tanks (of 7).
I have killed 14 of your INF.

My attack score is now 31
But your defense is down to 22.

Round 3 I kill 4 more with tanks/fighters, and the bomber misses.
You kill 1 with INF/armor, and 1 fighters (both loses either fighters or tanks)

My attack score is now 25
Your defense is down to 16

Round 4  I kill 3 with tanks/fighters, 1 with bomber.  Your infantry is gone and so is one of your 2 tanks.
You kill 1 with INF/Armor, and 2 with fighters.  I am taking Fighter losses to maintain ground forces for after the battle

My attack is now 16 (bomber, and a mixture of 4 tanks/fighters, your defense is 10, 1 tank, 2 fighters.

Round 5, I finish you off:  2 from armor/fighters, and 1 from bomber.
You retaliate with killing 2 more units.

So I have Karelia, with two tanks there (or perhaps a tank and a fighter flown back to Germany) and a bomber flown back to Germany.

Meanwhile, Germany did a naval landing in Caucuses supported by a battleship.  That lone russian INF is gone, and I have 1 or 2 INF in Caucuses.  Also, I blitzed open territory in Africa taking 3 IPC’s from UK.

Germany has 2 INF in Western, 1 or 2 in Caucuses, their Afrika Corps. 2 INF from Germany are moving into Eastern, the two tanks remain in Karelia.  And my build puts 2 INF in Southern, 7 in Germany, and a tank in Germany, plus the bomber flown back to Germany.  Germany gets paid PLUS 9 for 41 IPC’s

Sure, UK can re-take Karelia IF my subs fail against the UK navy, and Japan has a tough nut to crack in Yakut, but they can do it, and possibly Far East as well.  USA will likely fail against Westerm and so would take Finland.

In R2, Russia builds 8 INF in Karelia, with nothing to attack with; not even to boot that German INF out of Caucuses.  They get paid MINUS 7 (Caucuses, Far East, Yakut) and will only have funds to build 5 INF for R3, less bombing losses.
Come G3, Russia will ONLY have 13 INF, plus whatever UK and USA support has been moved in to defend against a German assault that could be as much as 18 INF, 5 tanks, and a bomber.

And Japan keeps marching West…

[cystic crypt]

yeah but Switch - this rarely happens.  It leaves Europe too soft, and besides - Russia is very rarely aggressive.  If German forces burn it’s offense down to 2 arm which are easily retaken by the UK in exchange for some 3-ipc badlands, then leaves itself a series of deadzones, i hardly see the advantage for Germany.  Russia bounces back pretty readily, whereas Germany is back to square zero.  In the meantime UK and US have built up a little and have taken FIN, and possibly WEU.  Germany shrinks from 41 - 30.  As for Japan - there is no “failure to contain it” so no losses there either.

[aaFiendish]

EDIT These numbers below are incorrect. I’m going to leave this post here though to show how much of a dolt I am. Most of the ideas still stand. Corrections are in next post. /EDIT

Switch,

(this dialogue is fun) I don’t think your numbers are representative of chance. With your offense vs. defense, germany will only win about 50%?

Lets do a little NOLUCK to show what the most probably outcome of your battle is. I’ll take out 1 plane with the AA gun.

R: 50 = 8 hits carry 2
K: 48 = 8 hits

R: 13 2’s, 2 4’s = 34 = 6 hits + carry4 + carry2 = 7 hits
G: 3 1’s, 11 3’s, 1 4 = 40 = 6 hits carry 4

R: 7 2’s 2 4’s = 22 = 3 hits carry 4
G: 7 3’s, 1 4 = 25 = 4 hits + carry1 + carry 4 = 4 hits + carry 5

R: 3 2’s, 2 4’s = 14 = 2 hits + carry 4 + carry 2 = 3 hits
G: 4 3’s, 1 4 = 16 = 2 hits + carry 4 + carry 5 = 3 hits + carry 3

R: 2 4’s = 8 = 1 hit + carry 2
G: 1 3’s, 1 4 = 7 + carry 4 = 1 hit + carry 5

R: 1 4 = 4 + carry 2 = 1 hit
G: 1 4 = 4 + carry 5 = 1 hit

R: Dead
G: Dead

So you are left with nothing in no luck. Let ssay you were left with a unit, you could always take out your bomber earlier of course, but then you are left with one tank, and no air. What would you do? I assume put the tank there, and no build in karelia is nice. (please double check my math, I did once and found an error, but am going off the assumption it’s right).

Of course, in RR russia would move over to UK seas, which means your subs have a whopping 11% chance at a win. 54% chance you only kill 1 or no transports, and even if I have to take the transport casualty, I have my transport off of canada. Much less chance if you don’t take your trans.

This round, I roll into karelia with a BB shot, 2 inf, 2 fighters. I probably take with 2 inf, land my fighters in moscow. I send my bomber, battleship, and sub to your BB and transport. They are gone. The UK doesn’t even BOTHER building an AC because you have nothing to take it with. Depending on transports it has left, it can build a few. Lets say it only has 1 left, so it builds 2. Then 4 inf. The US builds as per darth’s suggestion 3 trans/2 inf. The US lands 2 inf in finland, 2 fighters, bomber in UK.

Next round: Russia builds 6 inf in karelia, 2 in moscow. You have two inf in eastern, 1 armor in berlin. You cannot possibly attack, so where do your forces go? I assume you move inf into eastern, maybe do a little dance in ukraine/caucus. You still have no air, bonus for UK. UK moves 4 inf + 1 arm into karelia. It attacks your caucus inf with 1 bmb + 2 ftrs + 2 inf. Maybe ukraine has two inf also? So I don’t bother attacking. If it only had 1 I might split forces. US builds another 2 trans, places some in eastern, the rest in western. Shuffles its troops into finland, shifts finland troops to karelia.

You quote “Come G3, Russia will ONLY have 13 INF, plus whatever UK and USA support has been moved in to defend against a German assault that could be as much as 18 INF, 5 tanks, and a bomber.” Where did your 18inf come from? In G2 you only had 2 left in eastern, then lets say you moved your 9 in. That’s 11 that can attack in G3. Meanwhile, russia has 6 + R3 build of 6 (caucus was retaken in UK2) + 2 from moscow = 14. On top of that, you have in UK2 moved 4 inf + 1 arm into karelia, and the US has moved in another 2 inf. Oh yeah, and the fighters.

In short, G3’s more likely outcome is ~11inf + 5 armor vs. 14 inf + 4 inf + 1 arm + 4 ftrs.

I think you need to re-evaluate this all out assault on karelia, or maybe I am missing something.

Ack, this thread took up way too much time and can’t respond to others now. Damn this whole thinking thing. Oh, btw, if I stack Yakut with 7 inf and the armor you only have a 51% chance of taking it, and that is saccing 3 fighters to do so. 3 1’s 3 3’s 1 4 vs. 8 2’s. That means you don’t take the land either, which means another 2 IPCs for russia, yippee.

[aaFiendish]

@aaFiendish:

(this dialogue is fun) I don’t think your numbers are representative of chance. With your offense vs. defense, germany will only win about 50%?

Lets do a little NOLUCK to show what the most probably outcome of your battle is. I’ll take out 1 plane with the AA gun.

R: 50 = 8 hits carry 2
K: 48 = 8 hits

R: 13 2’s, 2 4’s = 34 = 6 hits + carry4 + carry2 = 7 hits
G: 3 1’s, 11 3’s, 1 4 = 40 = 6 hits carry 4

R: 7 2’s 2 4’s = 22 = 3 hits carry 4
G: 7 3’s, 1 4 = 25 = 4 hits + carry1 + carry 4 = 4 hits + carry 5

R: 3 2’s, 2 4’s = 14 = 2 hits + carry 4 + carry 2 = 3 hits
G: 4 3’s, 1 4 = 16 = 2 hits + carry 4 + carry 5 = 3 hits + carry 3

R: 2 4’s = 8 = 1 hit + carry 2
G: 1 3’s, 1 4 = 7 + carry 4 = 1 hit + carry 5

R: 1 4 = 4 + carry 2 = 1 hit
G: 1 4 = 4 + carry 5 = 1 hit

R: Dead
G: Dead

Whoever wrote that stuff in that post was really dumb. Germany actually wins more like 60% of the time. Allow me to correct that idiots numbers, man he can’t even count.

R: 50 = 8 hits carry 2
K: 48 = 8 hits

R: 13 2’s, 2 4’s = 34 = 5 hits + carry4 + carry2 = 6 hits
G: 3 1’s, 11 3’s, 1 4 = 40 = 6 hits carry 4

R: 7 2’s 2 4’s = 22 = 3 hits carry 4
G: 8 3’s, 1 4 = 28 = 4 hits + carry4 + carry 4 = 5 hits + carry 2

R: 2 2’s, 2 4’s = 12 = 2 hits carry 4 = 2 hits + carry 4
G: 5 3’s, 1 4 = 19 = 3 hits + carry 1 + carry 2 = 3 hits + carry 3

R: 1 4’s = 4 = 4 + carry 2 = 1 hit
G: 3 3’s, 1 4 = 7 + carry 4 = 1 hit + carry 5

R: Dead
G: 2 3’s + 1bmb

There, now that I have corrected myself. Much of what I said above still stands. I’ll carry noluck about as I talk about, and do the baltic battle. If the transport is left in the baltic to prevent offshore shelling then that can be an excercise to the user, and just means I’d use the bomber in karelia more than likely. In the UK Seas, lets do this quickly now…

R: Non-sub=1 4’s + 2 1’s = 1 hit
    Sub = 1 2’s = 2
G: Sub = 2 2’s = 4

R: Non-Sub 1 4’s 1 1’s = 5 (transport lost because g sub’s add to 6 this round)
  Sub = 1 2’s = 2 + 2 (from 1st round)
G: Sub = 1 2 = 4 (from 1st round) + 2 = 1 hit

So the UK attacks karelia with UP to 1 bb, 1 arm, 2 inf, 3 fighters, 1 bmb. Lets just say I take 2 fighters, 2 inf, an arm and the bb. That’s it for the defense, and in with the UK.

Yes, I realize I am going with a no luck scenario, and that does not represent reality. What I am trying to show is that if germany blows its load and the UK can take back karelia, it was a really silly move. Given that it is VERY likely they will, why do this as germany? Yes the dice can go well for you, yes you can take karelia with overwhelming force. On the other side, yes russia can kick your butt back to oblivion. Why the hell even bother to setup the board if you are going to attack karelia with RR? No strategy could be implemented by Russia to prevent this, there is nothing they can do. So you as germany take a crapshoot, maybe get lucky and hold karelia so russia can’t build on it. Otherwise karelia as I have demonstrated will have a strong defense. If your crapshoot works out, then you believe the allies have no chance. So why bother? Why throw the whole game to a single battle that requires no strategic setup?

If the mods want to move this latest part of the thread, go for it.

[Guest]

Actually, I was just showing that German CAN take it, no matter how hard Russia stacks.

And yes Germany would be weak afterwards, but building strongly for 2 rounds against a weakend Russia (with enough INF in key places so that UK would have to risk those precious fighters if they attempt an amphib).

You make a few errors in your responses.  Caucuses CAN’T be retaken in round 2 before German gets to act:  Russia has no forces left to do so:  everything west of Yakut (in your scenario) is dead (except the R2 build, 8 INF to cover Karelia and Russia).  That means Russia has to split their defense, leaving Karelia potentially vulnerable (not extremely, but again it comes down to my north atlantic sub sinking that Canadian transport and limitting UK to landing only 2 land units, of which one will survive and I might even get one or both of those fighters with AA or my land forces in Karelia that survive the BB.  Also, have you considered that Germany leaves only 1 land unit in Karelia, inviting UK in and saving much of their air-power for an all-out strike on Russia from the Caucuses that you can NOT re-take before G2?

Anyway, I know you are probably bored with this exchange:  that even with UK help, Germany can be adjacent to Moscow on multiple fronts and able to begin attrition warfare against Russia by G2.

And as far as holding Japan at Yakut with 7 INF and a tank…
On J1, I can probably crack that with available J forces in an RR game.

By J2 the only forces Russia has on the board are those you BUILT in R2:  8 INF, less any losses to Germany in G2.  (and perhaps there useless at this point except for cannon fodder Navy).

Do you REALLY think that Russia, starting from 8 INF in Round 2 and reduced IPC’s can stand up to Germany knocking on the door and Japan a tank-blitz away backed up by a hell of a lot of air-power?

All I have to do is take Russia ONCE, even if UK or USA takes it back.  I still get their money, and they then have NOTHING to build with next round… possibly ready to be re-taken to pay the Axis Russia’s money again…

[Linkon]

In KGF against veteran level opponents, Ger really has to wait for Jpn to open the eastern front.

Kar only falls only when Ger gets lucky.  Assuming average odds.  It will not last long.  US and UK will counterstrike on any weak Europe spot with amphib assaults.  After Kar, Ger will present multiple open and lightly defended European targets.

[aaFiendish]

@ncscswitch:

You make a few errors in your responses. Caucuses CAN’T be retaken in round 2 before German gets to act: Russia has no forces left to do so: everything west of Yakut (in your scenario) is dead (except the R2 build, 8 INF to cover Karelia and Russia). That means Russia has to split their defense, leaving Karelia potentially vulnerable (not extremely, but again it comes down to my north atlantic sub sinking that Canadian transport and limitting UK to landing only 2 land units, of which one will survive and I might even get one or both of those fighters with AA or my land forces in Karelia that survive the BB. Also, have you considered that Germany leaves only 1 land unit in Karelia, inviting UK in and saving much of their air-power for an all-out strike on Russia from the Caucuses that you can NOT re-take before G2?

Well it would have been a mistake if I said that caucus was retaken before germany gets to act. I believe it explicitly states it as UK 2’s move that they attack the caucus with 1 bmb, 2 ftrs, and 2 inf. I certainly make mistakes frequently but that was not one of them.

Given my no luck scenario, you leave 1 unit in karelia? So germany has 1 ftr, 1 bmb, and 2 inf f/ caucus attacking russia. That would be a very, very sad all-out attack. Even if I decided as stated before to only place 2 infantry in moscow, that only gives you a 20% chance of taking. Considering you would want to lose 1 infantry, then fighter/bmb if you wanted to take, your odds decrease drastically. G: 2 * 1 + 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. 2 * 2 + 2 * 4 + 2 (from aagun) -> G: 1 * 1 + 1 * 4 + 3(carry) vs. 1 * 2 + 2 * 4 + 2 -> G: Kaput vs. R: 2 * 4.  Everything else that could have reached russia was used against karelia. If you didn’t use everything you could possibly bear, your odds become much worse in the karelia assault. As I stated before, after you have shot your wad you have no legitimate G2 with your moves.

You are right though, it CAN be done.

@ncscswitch:

And yes Germany would be weak afterwards, but building strongly for 2 rounds against a weakend Russia (with enough INF in key places so that UK would have to risk those precious fighters if they attempt an amphib).

I really don’t think russia is that weakened. They are still making some nice IPCs. Furthermore, as you have stated elsewhere, you are not reaching parity with economy/units. You cannot hold the IPCs you have taken, and you have blown your main starting units. By the third round the allies still hold significant territory BUT the axis units in the west have accomplished very little IPCwise. Yes japan will start gobbling some up, but that is typical. Russia could only really start slowing them down when they get near moscow anyhow.

@ncscswitch:

And as far as holding Japan at Yakut with 7 INF and a tank…
On J1, I can probably crack that with available J forces in an RR game.

Yes, you CAN, but I think you are relying on too many CAN’s. (i love this reference) I CAN win at tic-tac-toe, but I would never bet on it. Trying to win twice in a row is even more difficult against a skilled opponent. By attacking yakut you significantly weaken your advance in south asia, allowing those troops to be used as speedbumps later. Not to mention it all for a gamble. Lets do my silly thing called math. The odds are you will take it with the bomber if you throw away the inf. That’s what I’d do. Still, I’ll do the math both ways, first with if you just kill the troops, 2nd if you want to take it. If my count is right, the yakut battle is (at most) J: 3 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 8 * 2 -> J: 1 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 (carry) vs. R: 6 * 2 + 4 -> G: 2 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 3 * 2 + 4 -> G: 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 vs. R: 2 * 2 + 4 -> G: 1 * 4 + 5 vs. R: 1 * 2 + 2 -> G: 1 * 4 vs. R: Kaput. That is an awfully close battle. If you want to take the land, then you shift the chances of you winning below 50%.

J: 3 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 8 * 2 -> J: 1 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 vs. R: 6 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1 * 1 + 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 3 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1*1 + 1 * 4 + 2 vs. 2 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1 * 1 + 1 vs. R: 1 * 2 + 2 -> -> J: Kaput R: 1 * 2.

Yes you can crack it, but as russia I’m willing to take those odds. 50% to take out 3 fighters and a bomber? Can I get a hell yeah?

@ncscswitch:

Do you REALLY think that Russia, starting from 8 INF in Round 2 and reduced IPC’s can stand up to Germany knocking on the door and Japan a tank-blitz away backed up by a hell of a lot of air-power?

The great thing about halloween is that you can always just not answer the door. Considering you sacced half your airforce on J1, can only tankblitz with 1 armor on J2, sacced your german airforce, your german armor, yes I do think they can stand up to it. The cool thing is that if you go all out on yakut, you cannot take china.

[DarthMaximus]

This was RR right?

If you know your opponent or feel a Kar strike on G1 is possible, Russia can certainly take back Cauc on rd 2.

Russia Stacks Kar (like above)

But move 2 inf from eve to Mos and 1 arm from yak to Novo.

Now UK takes back Kar on UK 1 (russia moved ships to Uk sz) and Russia attack 2 inf on Cauc with 2 inf, 1 arm.

And Russia places 8 more inf on Kar, or can even deadzone it by placing all 8 inf on Mos.

If Germany is going for all or nothing they need to take Kar with about 5-7 tanks to have a shot.  2-4 is not enough.

Russia can easily just retreat on the Eastern Front and by the time J3 rolls around Germany is boxed in Europe and the Allies have started to arrive in full force making it possible for Russia to hold against Japan and even push them back becasue Germany is in a weakend state.

[DarthMaximus]

Welcome back SUD.

I had some trouble posting for a bit.

We lost about 2 yrs or so of topics due to a hacker incident, so yeah you’re probably going to see A LOT of rendundant threads as we try to rebuild the info that was lost.

Anyway, good to see ya back.

[aaFiendish]

You assume that people would read the info if it was there :)

[DarthMaximus]

Lol!    :-D

[stuka pilot]

Depending on the first turn outcome, I would sometimes by a couple of bombers and the following turn send them to England to be used for conducting industrial raids. Then, save the change (6 IPC) for the following round.

[Guest]

More and more I find myself going for all infantry on US1 b/c it allows a greater spread of options later in the game some of which are mentioned here for turn 1.  The big drawback for A1 all inf purchase is that it means minimal movements to Africa on A2 which means IMO that you have to be able to swing doing more with less in Africa.  If you aren’t a skilled enough player to do this then stay away from this.  However, as I see skill as getting the most out of your units on every turn I try to avoid overkill ie overcommitment as it means making sacrifices elsewhere.  The longterm advantages of all inf on US1 is that on turn3-4 you will have no lag in production and you can build up your fleet more slowly allowing more unconventional builds to occur.  The US starts with 2trnies so if I can save them, that means getting the WUS one to the Atlantic, then I can build 2 on A2 and commit only the most minimal of capital to naval builds.  Sometimes the US can be very powerful with 7boats if they build 7arm, sometimes an exra ftr here or there might make a diff, but b/c I have committed very little to my fleet very early on I can react and respond to conditions on the board.

[dezrtfish]

I always buy the same things for A1, what changes are the number of Transports vs. Infantry.  I like 2 Trans 6 Inf on  rare occasions if I think Japan may make a run for Alaska I might excange one inf and the 2IPC for an Arm.  But I mostly play face to face and I can read more from eyes than text on screen,  :wink:

[limitedwhole]

I buy IC for Sinkiang, 1 SUb for Pacific, 1 TP for Atlantic.
Attack in Asia if possible.  Move bomber to UK.  Mpve both FIGs to WEsetrn Canada where they can hit hawaii seazone and land on British carrier.  Move 2 Inf into Africa.  Move 2 INF from western to Eastern for next turn Africa move.  Move BB, TP, and 1 Inf from wake to Hawaii.

This of course assumes several things as they go last in turn sequence.

[SSG Rock]

:|Pretty risky limitedwhole!  You may be buying an IC for Japan, if you can’t defend it quickly :-o

[limitedwhole]

I feel that if you cannot attack in ASia you are dead already.  Allowing Japan to have complete control over their forces is suicide for the team that already has an advantage.  Do you really want to take chances that Japan doesn’t have terrible dice rolls.  3 ARM, 6INF a turn is just too much for the Russians to bear.    Not to mention that an pressure form Japan draws pressure of Germany and German only needs a few INF breathing room on the eastern fornt to go nuts.

[Solomaxwell]

In my opinion, you need to take the initiative in the west first. Attack, attack, attack with UK and US, and defend, defend, defend with Russia. The pressure from Japan is more or less irrelevent, as long as you defend well in Russia, unless either you’re playing too poorly or the Axis player is too good.

[Guest]

I have had serious havoc played with my Japan strat via a Sinkiang IC.  But now that I have faced it played WELL. I know how to deal with it, and it does become a “pending liability” for Russia from the time it is built until it falls to Japan, at which point it becomes a liability for the Allies.

[limitedwhole]

@Soon_U_Die:

@limitedwhole:

I buy IC for Sinkiang, 1 SUb for Pacific, 1 TP for Atlantic.
Attack in Asia if possible.  Move bomber to UK.  Mpve both FIGs to WEsetrn Canada where they can hit hawaii seazone and land on British carrier.  Move 2 Inf into Africa.  Move 2 INF from western to Eastern for next turn Africa move.  Move BB, TP, and 1 Inf from wake to Hawaii.

This of course assumes several things as they go last in turn sequence.

Pls list your assumptions, especially whether or not you are proposing a 2 IC strategy for the Allies (India & Sinkiang).  I honestly don’t understand most/if not all of your purchases/moves.

Thanks

SUD

My assumptions would be this more or less.
The allies man two IC for a total of 3 INF, 2ARM production in Asia to Japans 3 misc.  The U.S. moves it fleet into Japanese territory aggresively.  The SUb purchase “guards” the BB and TP along with the FIGS.  Yes the Japnese can over power this with TP’s, but that is what the U.S. fleet is for to disrupt this.
The Japanese aren’t dumb and detroyed the AC at HAwaii first turn.
The Russians took MAnchuria or at least killed all tthe INF.
The U.S. will man an every turn setady supply of transports in the Atlantic not an evry other turn Tp shipments.  The every other turn strategy allows the Germans to not guard their rear every other turn.  You can alos combine shipments on a key turn.  4 INF and ARM in africa and 2 INF, 2ARM in EAstern U.S. attack WE.  At this pooint you move to the every other turn approach.  The idea is to make the minimum investment in the PAcific while having a steady grinding threat in the Atlantic.