Operation Barbarossa

[MuthaRussia]

One of the biggest questions of WWII was Hitler choice to invade USSR…Do you think his idea was smart?

[Zhukov_2003]

There are a couple of topics already like this but oh well,

Of course his decision to invade russia wasn’t smart, Germany lost, and if you lose, you obviously messed up somewhere.

[M-4_Sherman]

ok, any idiot foolis enough to getinvolved in a land war in Russia/Asia is just begging to get his ass kicked. there’s just way too much space out there to get lost in. not to mention all the cough cough willing soviet infantry. im mean, come on. how stupid can you get? if he ever decided to invade russia, and thats a pretty big if, he should only hve done so after conqering the UK. fighting a two front war is also never a good idea…

[MuthaRussia]

I think, if Paulus retreated the 6th army division south of Stalingrad, the trap, could have been foiled! Also, Hitler was too impatient! If he would have just kept pushing, and wasn’t so in need of Stalingrad, he could have blockaded Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow! Also once Finland backed out of the war in 1943, this screwed hitler. He may never admit to this but its true! Also, instead of blockading leningrad, troops in the western karelia region could have pushed to archangel, a very important naval, and supply base for USSR. Alos you say there is so much to take, but it would have been easier than you’d think…If Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and archangel fell, troop would become pro-hitler. There will always be guerilla’s, but the majority would have succumbed to hitler. The reality is Germany captured northern stalingrad, and instead of waiting for reenforcements, he pushed south. A tired cold army advancing should fortify. The russian snipers loved advancing infantry units or divisions, they picked them off like it was nothing! Also, hitler overestimated his armies strength. He wore them into nothing! It goes back to patience! If he waited for more rations for the army Leeb, and Von Rundstedt might have done better! Bock, on the other hand, was just getting beaten by Soviet pride in Leningrad…There courage was amazing! Bock was dead eithier way in his front. Another thing I think would have added to the effectiveness to the Germany army was if Rommel commanded a couple Panzer divisions in central Belorussia. After the battle of Moscow, panzer units were sent to stalingrad! If Rommel was given them he would have been able to better with giving enthusiasim to his troops. Which gives you a better feeling: Bock commanding a panzer division, or the notorius “Desert Fox” commanding one? And if Japan would have turned on russia, you wouldn’t need rommel there. China was more populated than russia at this time by about 11 million people, so attacking china was just as dumb as attack russia, so I think the axis’ teamwork was sad! :cry: If the japanese attacked russia at the same time as Hitler, this would have devastated the russians! And to add to all this, Stalin was planning on invading Hitler anyways! So, regardless, it is better to be on the offensive, and hitler did just that! So, M-4_Sherman, I believe saying that hitler was a retard is wrong! :-? Teamworked killed the axis! :x

I hope I didn’t forget anything! :P

[cystic crypt]

well done mr . . . a post that’s not about post-counting.
For me the attack on Russia still puzzles me. If Germany had held the treaty with Russia, and not declared war on the US, i think that they could have held Europe for 25 years.
Even if Germany had defeated Russia, then what?? How would they govern a nation 3-4 times its size? They would have needed to maintain a massive presence just to suppress a militant soviet union.

[MuthaRussia]

But stalin had planned an attack on Germany…So there would have been war regardless… :-?

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@MuthaRussia:

But stalin had planned an attack on Germany…So there would have been war regardless… :-?

Yes, but the Germans were much better trained then the Russians, and even though we all know what the Russian military concept is/was like, the Germans might have caused enough casualties for the Russians to give up, or failing that, made life for the Russians so difficult that it would have been impossible for them to finish the job.

[MuthaRussia]

But there are so many what if’s and but’s that I just like to go along with what happened!

[Guest]

@cystic:

Even if Germany had defeated Russia, then what?? How would they govern a nation 3-4 times its size? They would have needed to maintain a massive presence just to suppress a militant soviet union.

With a different attitude of the german conquerors (in the beginning) they might have avoided that problem. In many places, like the baltic states, Belarus and the Ukraine, the germans were first seen as “liberators” from Stalin’s rule. Had the Germans lived up to that “hope” (of those people), they could have spared themsleves some guerilla action and drawn a lot more of support from there.
But, having these eastern and slavic (that excludes the batlic people) people labeled as “unworthy” made this approach impossible (fortunately).

[Panzerfeldmarschall]

Hitler messed up Barbarossa. If he had let everything up to his generals and not interfered with their planning, the German advance would have been sucessful. Hitler was an absolute Retard when it came to war! He messed up the defense for D-Day too! (The position concering the Panzer divisons and reinforcements.)

[MuthaRussia]

Churchill had spies tell him not to send reenforcements… Hitler was not exactly a retard, he just overestimated his armies strenght!

[Zhukov_2003]

Right MR. Hitler fought the war on his strategic map. Where he saw a strong fully equipped division, there was actually a force 1/4 of its usual size, underequipped and underarmed.

The Panzer Lehr Divison, one of the most elite german divisions, after 50 days of fighting in Normandy, was reduced to 2,200men and 45 servicable tanks, it was ordered to hold a 3 mile stretch of land. It did not hold for long, but of course to Hitler it was a full strength division so he ordered a counter attack which destroyed pretty much what ever was left of the division.

Just an example of Hitlers blind ignorance.

[MuthaRussia]

He also should have formed a winter line in Russia…

[Wargaming_nut]

Hitler simply suffered from an overdose of hubris. Had he listened to his generals, not attacked Stalingrad, and attacked Russia earlier in the year (rather than help Italy in Greece) I’m convinced he could have won. As for holding the territory, I doubt that would have been much problem; I seriously doubt the Russians would have been anxious to get the Bolshevics back in power. In other words, if the attack had been totally different, it would have been perfect! :P

[Guest]

@Wargaming_nut:

As for holding the territory, I doubt that would have been much problem; I seriously doubt the Russians would have been anxious to get the Bolshevics back in power. In other words, if the attack had been totally different, it would have been perfect! :P

Ahm … you doubt holding “would have been” a problem without the condition that would have been needed. Pure hubris of Hitler in the military sense as you listed it can’t be the reason.
Another thing: do not underestimate the power of patriotism.
Would you as an USie welcome an international liberation force that freed you of your model of Oligarchie, and installed some proper Democracy? Surely not.

[MuthaRussia]

Very true F_alk! I’m glad someone revived this post, cause i love talking about it!

Patriotism is something the Russians had in the ton Stalins country was just so willing to die for the motherland cough cough :lol:
I also think Germany would have had trouble waging blitzkrieg in the siberian region! :-?

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@MuthaRussia:

Very true F_alk! I’m glad someone revived this post, cause i love talking about it!

Patriotism is something the Russians had in the ton Stalins country was just so willing to die for the motherland cough cough :lol:
I also think Germany would have had trouble waging blitzkrieg in the siberian region! :-?

I don’t know, once you get the tanks outfitted for cold, it wouldn’t be too hard, of course I’m going without maps here, but IIRC Siberia is pretty flat, and good for blitzkriegs.

[Guest]

Well, a Blitzkrieg means that after breaking enemy lines you can exploit that breakthrough quickly.
One option is to encircle the enemy, the otehr one is to go for strategically (and to a lesser degree: tactically) important points.
And for both of these things: it has to happen quickly, thus the name “Blitz”.
All of that is not problem in populated areas of the world. But in Siberia?
Blitzing over 100s of kms is not blitzing anymore.

[sherman28]

The Germans had too many types of tanks, sp’s as well as soft skin vehicles going at the same time that the logistics of getting all the spare parts together was a nightmare enough. Not to mention the fact that German supplies throughout the war were horsedrawn- not a big deal when you are close to Germany but a big pain in the neck when you’re fighting in Stalingrad. Top it off with an economy that wasn’t geared for total war until 1943…

[Guest]

@sherman28:

Not to mention the fact that German supplies throughout the war were horsedrawn- not a big deal when you are close to Germany but a big pain in the neck when you’re fighting in Stalingrad.

Ahm …
the US had the only fully motorized army in that war. That doesn’t mean that all or even most of the supply was horsedrawn.
I suppose that was just the last few kms in areas that had a crappy infrastructure (like parts of the USSR at that time). Otherwise, the main load of supply surey was moved by trains and lorries.