Would the Allies win without Russia in the real war?


  • @MuthaRussia:

    USSR would have become involved either way at one point… Hitlers belief of the lebensraum, was directly related to russia. If anything the question would be would russia win the war alone! :wink:

    In that case, I don’t think so– but it would have depended on how fast the Russians got slaughtered.


  • its a very interesting question. IMHO, a couple of points; number one, technology. Personally, I think the Third Reich was not interested in wonder weapons until the heady days of early victory were long gone. THerefore; I would assert there would have been no Tigers, no rockets and no predecessors to the AK 47 in a campaign against Russia.
    Second. Even after Barbarossa had begun German troops were being demobilised and the German economy did not reach a total war-footing until 1944. So an assault against USSR would not have been a wonder army qualitatively and quantitatively greater than the 3 million men committed in 1941. (I promise not to use the terms ‘quantitative’ or qualitative’ in any form for at least a week).
    Plus, Stalins army is still crippled by the purges amongst its upper and middle management.
    Therefore, with the above in mind, could the Germans have broken the USSR? Assuming they could have given it all their attention? No distractions from the West what-so-ever?
    tricky……
    I would say ‘no’ albeit with some hesitation, because the above situation described is what the Germans actually faced in 1941. I think there would probably have been a stalemate for a while. But in the long term? Who had the greater resources on which to draw? USSR or Nazi Germany?
    Plus the big issue; Stopping a German offensive is one thing but hoisting the Red Flag over the Reichstag is another.
    Could the Allies have actually crushed Nazi Germany without one another?

    Chindit.


  • Tough question …
    did the loss of Battle of Britain (e.g. lots of airforce), and the Battle in the Atlantic chew up that many ressources?
    If i assume no war with the west, that would also count for Italy, and thus no African Corps…
    And of course, no terror/strategic bombing on germany. Although their economic impact has to be discussed, as the time of the bombings doesn’t allow to clearly state its impacts.

    But still: I think the soviets alone would have won. Just the facts of industrial capacities, manpower, length of supply lines and guerilla resistance IMHO made a german victory impossible.


  • What Chindit wrote about German technology if there was no war with Russia is a good point.(I would quote him but I dont know how). Tiger Tanks, Panthers, and anyother armoured monstrasity they made after 1942 was to counter the powerful russian tanks. Although his point about the AK47 is wrong. The AK47 was derived from the SKS, not the MP44.

    The germans had a poor wartime economy until 1943, mostly because they had over 300 types of tanks, over 150 types of aircraft, and even 50 types of lorries. This made mass producing very hard because with so many different types of tanks and aircraft, each piece had to be different. There was a joke among German generals that they would order a tiger one day, then a couple of panthers another day, and maybe a mortar here and there. :P


  • I think that a war that involved only Russia and Germany would be just the same as the war was originally. The Germans pushed almost every tank, man and artillery into russia in the first place. Only in 1944 the allies came to a sort of “rescue” and then Russia had full controll. The answer is clear :D


  • Wow! I think i’ve posted the longest discussion ever! Im still not sure considering i haven’t been on this forum forever? But meaby you guys can tell me if I did or not? Well have fun, and play well.

    Peace Out :lol:

    P.S: Im Awesome.


  • Not even close. :D Check out the “Existance of God” forum.


  • There was one forum about the war in Iraq, I think 15 pages (correct me if I’m wrong).


  • One of the Iraqi threads or the one about the UN are the longest AFAIR.


  • Donkey Kong Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:52 am Post subject:

    –------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think that a war that involved only Russia and Germany would be just the same as the war was originally. The Germans pushed almost every tank, man and artillery into russia in the first place. Only in 1944 the allies came to a sort of “rescue” and then Russia had full controll. The answer is clear


    you know its interesting, how much of a contribution did the West make?
    I remember reading that the Germans kept back about 300,000 soldiers to man AA batteries and attempt to cope with round-the-clock USAF/RAF bombing.
    Also, the Germans had 50 divisions committed to counter D-Day. Hitler believed that with D-Day taken care of those could be sent east to deal with the ‘greater threat.’
    Again the Ardennes offensive sapped the Germans of any chance of holding the USSR back.
    I think a point someone made some time back stands; a stalemate was likely if it was only USSR v Third Reich. But a victory against the latter needed more.
    (And to think someone once said this posting belonged in the General postings)


  • Also, the Germans had 50 divisions committed to counter D-Day

    Hmm…I guess thats would explain how less than 10,000 allied soldiers secured a beach head on France facing a 50 division strong army. :D Germany had more like 1-2 divisions facing the allies on D-Day.


  • @Zhukov_2003:

    Also, the Germans had 50 divisions committed to counter D-Day

    Hmm…I guess thats would explain how less than 10,000 allied soldiers secured a beach head on France facing a 50 division strong army. :D Germany had more like 1-2 divisions facing the allies on D-Day.

    you got me!
    (I meant 50 divisions in the west, The Heer)
    The Germans didn’t know where the Allies would land so they spread them right around the Atlantic wall. In Normandy the Allies faced (initially) 3 German divisions to their 8.
    Big problem of course faced by the Germans was getting their reserves into the fight.


  • The Soviet Order of Battle during WW2 had something like 500 divisions that were put to use against Hitler. The Germans had something near 450. The US’s target was near 100 Divisions and they ended up with something like 70. I don’t know much about the British OOB, but it was definitely less than Ameirca’s.


  • @Chindit:

    Big problem of course faced by the Germans was getting their reserves into the fight.

    I thought the big problem of the Germans on D-Day was that Hitler believed that it was a fake and kept his forces waiting for the mythical 1st Army under Patton. All right, it’s the same, but different. :roll:


  • A huge reason why they could not push the America/Canada/British back to the beaches was because the tanks they were a 1hour(the one 1 hour away wasn’t the problem) away from the main beachheads but they could not move unless told from Hitler himself :o !

    At the moment Hitler was asleep and nobody was allowed to wake him up. He only woke up hours after the invasion had started If Hitler was awake they could of strown back a couple of beaches for sure :wink: .

    Peace Out.


  • Thats bull sh*t. The tanks weren’t anywhere near Norrmandy. Maybe they already had 10 there but that still wouldn’t have made a difference. After Rommel was forced out of Africia he was on his way to the West Coast. If we had forced him out of Africia sooner or delayed D-Day, he would have made it. And if he was there with all his tanks, we would have lost D-Day. But no whoop. We would have just launched a bigger assult a half a year later.


  • actually, there were tnks nearby… were did you find the info that there werent?
    I heard there were on History channel!
    I guess that channel is full of crap too! :roll:


  • even if russia hadn’t been involved and hitler had all his men and material to throw at us, we still would have won. germany could’nt match the industrial might of the U.S.A. and coupled with pearl harbour, we were out for blood. and the moral of the war is, dont mess with america!


  • Guys, hitler dreamed of invading ussr before he even became fueher!
    He wrote about it in Mein kampf!


  • The thing that won D-Day for the Allies was that Hitler didn’t want to be woken before a certain time. When he finally woke up, he believed that the Normandy invasion was a overly-successful diversionary tactic, masking the real invasion which would be at Pas de Calais. He could have called in the Panzer reserves, which were nearby. However, he decided to wait for the real invasion. When he finally decided that Normandy was the real invasion, the beachheads had been for the secured. Furthermore, because of Allied bombing of transportation lines, and some resistance, it took some tanks days to get to Normandy. Had he sent the tanks earlier, it is probable that the invasion would still have succeeded, but it would have been much less successful. The only way for the Germans to have won the battle was to have beaten back the Allies into the sea before they had secured the beachheads. Otherwise, they were virtually undefeatable.

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