Gun Control

[Darrigaaz]

Correct, i don’t read your posts not properly.

Thats a double negative… i mens yes i do read your posts properly.

You can get trigger locks very cheap or even for free from the sensible gun-controlists.
You cant really standardize a lock/safe, seeing as the governmnet cant walk into your house to inspect. Thats not a bad idea. All newly made firearms have a safety mechanism.

@CC:

Since when is more slaughtered people and more people in jails preferable to a society with fewer slaughtering devices?

Ok you got me on this one…. i guess i just read it as a rhetorical question. Even reading it over now… i still get the impression that thats what it was…
@CC:

A society where the right to have guns takes precedance over the lives of its citizens is a society with whacked priorities… trampling the rights of people to own guns is soo much more onerous than people losing their lives to these guns.

Nope…. a statement regarding the topic, not asking the question. And i gave my reasoning/opinion.
@me:

The costs … how much is a human live worth? You seem to know the answer, and it doesn’t seem to be that much.
I agree totally with CC here, and whoever takes his own “rights” as more important than other peoples lives

I answered this one. But the date is incorrect and i cant find the post anymore.
@CC:

evidently not one where rationality and citizens lives takes precedence over the right to a little death-spitter

That was more of angry remark, and while its on the subject, it doesnt ask the question.

Sorry that i didn’t ask that question explicitly before. If i overestimated your capabilites of to abstract, then i am sorry for that and will try not to let it happen again.

Thats like like we’re having a conversation on penguin conservation and you expect me to magically know when to talk about how their breeding affects survival. ok…. that was an absolutely terrible analogy, but basically you can’t expect me to say absolutely everything you want to hear when you want to hear it any more than i can you.

And calm down on the snide remarks, there’s no need for you to get angry. I’m glad that your passionate about the subject, but acting like that really does nothing but make you look petty.

That is what i asked you…… finally, you come to it.

While severe gun controlists like yourself seem to want to do anything and everything to save a life without thinking of those you hurt. Then you (well, CC actually) say that “Well who cares about what millions of honest americans will think about this, we saved a life, and that makes it alright” (Paraphrased) Sure its great that you saved a life, but you made millions of lives a bit worse. The whole issue, including which side you stand on, boils down to your opinions on morality. People will always die. In most cases, there would have been a way for us to have saved them. But if society were to do everything it could to save these people, we would have nothing. Moderation is the key. YOU are not a hunter/gun owner. YOU have no experience with them. Name something thats dear to you. ok, lets not use you, lets use the millions of people worldwide who use tobacco products. Tobacco is dangerous not only to those who use it, but to those near those who use it. I have no experience with tobacco, so in my mind i would gladly wish it banned to save the thousands who die from it every year. But what about all those smokers out there? I’m sure they dissagree with me.

And for me, it is no right, thus any single live is enough.

Well in that case, owning a chainsaw, to me, is no right. Does that mean that it makes sense to ban all chainsaws to protect people from death and injury?

“The same principle of law should apply to gun owners that applies to all other citizens you break the law and cause harm to others; you get punished and you lose your freedom and rights . You dont get punished just because some fanatical group of people with an opposing view says you should be.” Quote from my friend’s father, also a hunter.

If you look up what Sherman28 said in a different thread:

In an American Court conspiracy to commit X, typically carries the same weight as committing X.

good quote, but average gun owners do not conspire to go out and murder people in their sleep.

Doesn’t fit, because of the word “fanatical”. Soone fanatical has not only opposite views, but also acts according to his views, which would make him a criminal or at least conspiring. Anyway, that’s just a minor point. Fell free to anwer, i won’t carry it further after your reply.

So when i make a small point, you can turn it into a rhinocerous, but i cant’? ha!
P.S. fits fine…

I am close to call you names for that. First you ask, and then you totally ignore the answers. Why did you ask us then in the first place?

I didn’t ask you if you thought it was a good idea, just if you had a problem with it. Get over yourself.

Also… that estimate that there are over 200 million firearms in the country acording to the FBI; thats about the only thing pro and anti gun advocates agree on.

Well, whoever looks for the stick in the others eye should look for the log in his own… or something like that. That’s another good quote to pull out…

i like my quote better :P

[Guerrilla Guy]

CC, do you really think most gun owners walk around just wating to blow people’s brains out? If this statement is true then Minnesota should be a war zone and New York City Heaven…

GG

[cystic crypt]

While severe gun controlists like yourself seem to want to do anything and everything to save a life without thinking of those you hurt. Then you (well, CC actually) say that “Well who cares about what millions of honest americans will think about this, we saved a life, and that makes it alright” (Paraphrased) Sure its great that you saved a life, but you made millions of lives a bit worse. The whole issue, including which side you stand on, boils down to your opinions on morality. People will always die. In most cases, there would have been a way for us to have saved them. But if society were to do everything it could to save these people, we would have nothing. Moderation is the key. YOU are not a hunter/gun owner. YOU have no experience with them. Name something thats dear to you. ok, lets not use you, lets use the millions of people worldwide who use tobacco products. Tobacco is dangerous not only to those who use it, but to those near those who use it. I have no experience with tobacco, so in my mind i would gladly wish it banned to save the thousands who die from it every year. But what about all those smokers out there? I’m sure they dissagree with me.

it’s not about saving “A” life, but thousands and thousands. America had over 11 000 gun homicides last year. This number does not include (afaik) accidental gun deaths. Nor does this number include gun-woundings. This number is nearly 70 times that of Canada (with 1/10th the population - again, not including the wounded). These numbers are substantially more than 1 person (and yes, i would say that to save the life of 1 child, one 6 year old girl, a million people should be denied the right to own a firearm.
As far as tobacco goes - you are absolutely right. We are increasingly making smokers pariahs in society. I believe that people who smoke around children should be charged with child abuse. There are increasing laws and taxes limiting public smoking, and decreasing the amount of smoking period. I am all about eliminating smoking from society beginning at the level of the producers and providers.
I hope this clears up my stance a little bit. Should all hunters suffer the loss of a firearm if it would prevent 1 death? I suppose the dear, moose, fox, etc. wouldn’t mind so much . . . .

[Guerrilla Guy]

FBI Statistics (FBI, “Crime in US” 1998) stated that 2/3 of all firearm deaths are criminals killing criminals! It is against the law to commit Murder! Guns are used 6,580(resistance to crime: the prevealance and nature of Self-Defense with a Gun #86 “the Journal of Criminal Law” Northwestern Univ. of Law) times a DAY to defend themselves (me brings up handy computer calculator…) if we times that be 300 (just for a conservative rate we get: 2,055,000 lives saved every year! remembr that this is a conservative rate… Thousands are not lost because of accidents but because of suicide! 2% of firearm deaths related to civilians shooting actually killed a innocent person… I feel bad that a 1 and 6 yo got shot by their brother just as anyone else would… Everyone doesn’t deserve to die an early death by any means… do not auto assume that we are non-caring Americans who just want a gun for bragging rights… we would own them for a reason… The parents were not there (why I don’t know) and the gun was not secure so something like that was bound to accure… Here is a question for you: why does the politician who is making a speech about how his new gun control law will save lives, why does he need 5 body guards?

GG

[djensen]

@Yanny:

There should be three kinds of guns in this country.

1. Guns designed for hunting
2. Guns designed for policemen
3. Guns designed for the military

I challenge you to name for me one reason why you need a gun other than the three above mentioned reasons, if no one else has a gun.

Guns for self protection against (non-human) animals in the wild. I knew somebody who grew up in Alaska and he said you are stupid if you go into the Alaskan wilderness without a gun.

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

(and yes, i would say that to save the life of 1 child, one 6 year old girl, a million people should be denied the right to own a firearm.

What if that 6 year old girl had been run over by someone driving a car? Would you say that millions of car owners should be denied the right to own a car?

[Darrigaaz]

America had over 11 000 gun homicides last year.

This figure was actually brought up by super liberal Kevin today during my George Bush Rant. It DOES include those caused by accidents. Of those that were crimes, as either you or F_alk so aptly put it, 96% were performed by illegally owned firearms. Your first priority should be to find a way to remove illegally owned firearms from our country, or my country i should say. (your from canada, right?) This, which would be VERY difficult, but surely someone as smart as you could figure out a solution. I think since we have been over the banning guns philosophy on both sides, this would be a great way to branch off but stay on topic.

This number is nearly 70 times that of Canada (with 1/10th the population - again, not including the wounded).

off topic: i went to Canada last year, and despite all the jokes people may make, Canada does have a few really good things going for it. As i drove through Ottawa, i noticed that the city is insanely clean! and really easy to navigate. While on another road trip, i got lost in the bronx for three friggin hours because the roads were all screwed up, and a past the same damned blue bridge 16 times! Also Canada’s crime rate is like Nil. On the news up there, they were talking about a massive crime wave, and the numbers they spoke of were so miniscule i almost laughed. My trip there was really fun and pleasant though; with only two things going wrong. Some guy in an army surplus store lied to me when i bought a helemt there. i knew he was lying, but still bought it. He told me it was British WWII era, but it looks nothing like any of their helmet models.

The second thing was that while driving home through Quebec, i got bit by an elk (also known as the Wapiti). It didn’t break the skin, but it was still traumatizing.

Should all hunters suffer the loss of a firearm if it would prevent 1 death? I suppose the dear, moose, fox, etc. wouldn’t mind so much . . . .

That was really well written, and you must have put a great deal of thought into it. But let me just say that hunting is a lot more humane than any of the ways fast food joints ETC kill their animals. Damn Macdonalds and its ‘making a bad name for the United States’-ness.

[Guest]

Darrigaaz,
do you want to make me laugh or cry?
Seriously, you can’t be just that……

On my trolls-list, you climb up position after position…

[cystic crypt]

@Guerrilla:

FBI Statistics (FBI, “Crime in US” 1998) stated that 2/3 of all firearm deaths are criminals killing criminals! It is against the law to commit Murder!

dumbest stat ever!! So 1/3 of these involved non-criminals?? This alone is a travesty!! Also the killing of “criminals” is not necessarily something to be desired. I guess unless you are an American . . . .

Guns are used 6,580(resistance to crime: the prevealance and nature of Self-Defense with a Gun #86 “the Journal of Criminal Law” Northwestern Univ. of Law) times a DAY to defend themselves (me brings up handy computer calculator…) if we times that be 300 (just for a conservative rate we get: 2,055,000 lives saved every year! remembr that this is a conservative rate…

gee . . . i wonder if there were no guns, how many times would a gun be necessary to be used for self-defense? Also, i really question this stat. Yours is one scary nation where a gun may save over 2 000 000 lives every year. Add that onto the number of times where there is an attack with no gun to save the life, and your society is far to anarchist to be imagined.

Thousands are not lost because of accidents but because of suicide! 2% of firearm deaths related to civilians shooting actually killed a innocent person…

Again, i do not know about America, but here we work extremely hard to prevent suicides. If removing guns from the situation may delay the commission of a suicide, these people may actually get the help they need instead of offing themselves. This is extraordinarily tragic. And only 2%? Geee . . . that’s not very many at all. How about we eliminate this 2%? Or is this only a problem if you know one of these people??

I feel bad that a 1 and 6 yo got shot by their brother just as anyone else would… Everyone doesn’t deserve to die an early death by any means… do not auto assume that we are non-caring Americans who just want a gun for bragging rights… we would own them for a reason… The parents were not there (why I don’t know) and the gun was not secure so something like that was bound to accure…

while the gun was there, then yes, something was bound to occur. If the gun was not there, then the chances of this occurring were much more remote.

Here is a question for you: why does the politician who is making a speech about how his new gun control law will save lives, why does he need 5 body guards?

Why is a nation with so many guns, the most apparently terrified, crime-ridden, murderous, most insecure, most unsafe nation in the world?
He needs the 5 body guards (and he has many many more) because:

1. He’s a head of state
2. Because there is a demonstrated need for new TIGHTER gun control.

[cystic crypt]

@Grigoriy:

(and yes, i would say that to save the life of 1 child, one 6 year old girl, a million people should be denied the right to own a firearm.

What if that 6 year old girl had been run over by someone driving a car? Would you say that millions of car owners should be denied the right to own a car?

tragically this happens all to often. Given our reliance on cars for many beneficent uses, the elimination of cars would set us back as a society. At the same time, i am in favor of much tighter regulation of cars and driver’s licenses. Increased mandatory safety checks, more difficulty in attaining and maintaining a license, etc. Also loving the idea of the ignition tied to a breathalyzer. Careless drivers lose their licenses entirely, as well as their cars . . . .
Also - note: it is not simply one 6-year old. it is thousands and thousands of people killed by units created not to help mankind, but to KILL PEOPLE!!

[Guest]

@djensen:

I knew somebody who grew up in Alaska and he said you are stupid if you go into the Alaskan wilderness without a gun.

I know that guy, too.

But I know a coupla hot chicks who lived there for over 30 years who say the same thing. They moved here for the work and the warmer weather. With the warm winters Alaska’s been having they’re thinking of moving back up there. Boy, will I miss them. Woo-woo!

Went shooting with them, too, and boy can they shoot!(revolver and rifle.)
Glad to call them friend and neighbour!

[El Jefe]

Dammit! That was me… bumped offline again!

@Anonymous:

@djensen:

I knew somebody who grew up in Alaska and he said you are stupid if you go into the Alaskan wilderness without a gun.

I know that guy, too.

But I know a coupla hot chicks who lived there for over 30 years who say the same thing. They moved here for the work and the warmer weather. With the warm winters Alaska’s been having they’re thinking of moving back up there. Boy, will I miss them. Woo-woo!

Went shooting with them, too, and boy can they shoot!(revolver and rifle.)
Glad to call them friend and neighbour!

[Guerrilla Guy]

I’m back…

CC wrote:
Also - note: it is not simply one 6-year old. it is thousands and thousands of people killed by units created not to help mankind, but to KILL PEOPLE!!

As I said, it has also saved over a million a year… you never hear those stories cause they promote gun use… are those people that were saved insignificant? maybe they are unintelligent zombies :wink: :lol: … many 6 yo were saved when her father pulled out a .22 or a .38 special and gave the burglar, murderer whatever a scare… why don’t you mention those saved…

GG

[Guest]

GG, many 6 yo were saved because the paramedics had a motorized vehicle.
And i bet: more lives have been saved this way than have been taken by cars. Can you say the same for guns, that is: more lives were saved by “scaring the murderer off” than lives were lost due to guns?

[Guerrilla Guy]

@Guerrilla:

FBI Statistics (FBI, “Crime in US” 1998) stated that 2/3 of all firearm deaths are criminals killing criminals! It is against the law to commit Murder! Guns are used 6,580(resistance to crime: the prevealance and nature of Self-Defense with a Gun #86 “the Journal of Criminal Law” Northwestern Univ. of Law) times a DAY to defend themselves (me brings up handy computer calculator…) if we times that be 300 (just for a conservative rate we get: 2,055,000 lives saved every year! remembr that this is a conservative rate… Thousands are not lost because of accidents but because of suicide! 2% of firearm deaths related to civilians shooting actually killed a innocent person… I feel bad that a 1 and 6 yo got shot by their brother just as anyone else would… Everyone doesn’t deserve to die an early death by any means… do not auto assume that we are non-caring Americans who just want a gun for bragging rights… we would own them for a reason… The parents were not there (why I don’t know) and the gun was not secure so something like that was bound to accure… Here is a question for you: why does the politician who is making a speech about how his new gun control law will save lives, why does he need 5 body guards?

GG

here was my post F_alk…

[Guest]

Thanks for reposting that … let me comment on that:

@Guerrilla:

Guns are used 6,580(resistance to crime: the prevealance and nature of Self-Defense with a Gun #86 “the Journal of Criminal Law” Northwestern Univ. of Law) times a DAY to defend themselves (me brings up handy computer calculator…) if we times that be 300 (just for a conservative rate we get: 2,055,000 lives saved every year!..)

ahem first, your math is wrong: you put in 6850 *300. Your given number of 6580 * 300 would be 1974000 crimes prevented.
The thing i critize about that: I ask for lives saved, you say crimes prevented. Noone is hurt if someone steals from you, noone dies if you get beaten up (lightly). Still, these are crimes which probably show up in the statistics.
Thus, i don’t agree at all that your estimate was conservative…. unless you meant it the political way ;)

Another point: if all these self-defense were against “attacks against your life”, and i just assume that the US society is otherwise a “usual” western society and that Germany is a “usual” western society… then we in Germany would have (82 million germans, compared to 278 million USies, assuming the ratio holds) an approximated 582,000 deaths that were not prevented by guns (as we don’t have guns). In 2000 we had about 735,000 people that died in Germany. So, that would mean that about 80% of all people in germany die due to violent crimes.
This is unbelievable.
Thus, one of the assumptions has to be wrong:
Either you are an extremely violent country and thus “unusal”,
or germany is an extremely peacful country and thus “unusual”,
or the crimes that were prevented would have been non-lethal to a huge degree.
I tend to the third reason

[Guest]

The NRA took the time to make a black list:

http://www.nraila.com/FactSheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=15

[Guerrilla Guy]

alright average! 8) Crime is unpredictable… does that prove that gun control will solve the problem?..

[Guest]

No, but it weakens (if not dissolves) one “pro”-argument, and shows why the car-gun analogy is not valid.

[cystic crypt]

@Guerrilla:

I’m back…

CC wrote:
Also - note: it is not simply one 6-year old. it is thousands and thousands of people killed by units created not to help mankind, but to KILL PEOPLE!!

As I said, it has also saved over a million a year… you never hear those stories cause they promote gun use… are those people that were saved insignificant? maybe they are unintelligent zombies :wink: :lol: … many 6 yo were saved when her father pulled out a .22 or a .38 special and gave the burglar, murderer whatever a scare… why don’t you mention those saved…

GG

because:

1. we have no idea on which this stat is based on. Is this a million encounters a year in the streets where one person approaches another saying “i’m going to kill you now” and a gun saves the day? Is this because 2 gang-bangers pulled guns on each other and decided not to be killed by the other one? Did a wife pull a gun on her husband who was attacking her with another gun or a knife?
2. these people were “saved” from other people with guns!!! If guns were unavailable, then this million people would not have to go through this traumatic experience of “needing a gun to protect them”. I would suggest that if guns were banned then this group of people would not need this kind of protection. Really, this argument is such a joke, especially when looking at the whole picture. It makes the US look like South Africa.