Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.


  • @AK_Grown:

    @Auswanderersland:

    /agree.  I am hoping someone helps me with this.  IDK, JJ is currently having his way with allweneedislove.  Allweneedislove is doing better than I the first time I played against this strat, but then he has the advantage of knowing what is coming.  IDK, I advertised for a player to play a game so hopefully someone will pipe up.

    My Saturday group is going to try this and see how it works out.  We have a guy who claims Allies cannot lose at all no matter the strategy, so I’m going to try it on him.

    If you want my advice, I fell in love with a discovery Allweneedislove forced on me during our test game: Just sacrifice Italy’s Africa front.

    If you survive with 1 transport bring the tank and infantry from AFrica to Yugoslavia…if 2 transports bring the mech and another infantry there.

    Then produce a tank and mech turn 1. A bomber turn 2. (they need to roll a six with the UK bomber to prevent the placement of the bomber in s. Italy)

    Move all the N.Italy force to Yugo turn 1 and Albania there 2 as in my test game.

    Forget S. France as Germany likes the money and the factory in the Med for options.

    That is enough to give you plenty of men to prevent the Russian counterattacks turn 4.

    Italy turn 1 should have 4 armor: 1 in N.Italy, 1 in Yugo, 2 in Slovakia; 7-8 infantry and 2aaguns and 2artillery in Yugo(if two transports live); 1-2 mech (1 N.italy, 1 Yugo if 2 transports alive); 2ftr; 1 bomber
    Turn 2: build the bomber, if able DOW Russia, move to EPL or baltic states, move other fast movers up, land 2 fighters withing range of your tanks next turn’s targets.

    Path ideally will be: EPL;BEL;BRY or SMO; Moscow or south… have fun. From Belarus, with 4tanks,2mech,2ftr,2bombers good luck Russia, leaving blockers in both SMO and BRY to guard your capital from Germany. Wait until the 2aaguns,8troops,and 2 artillery arrive from Yugo (turn 5or6 if needed)…lol


  • Not sure about abandoning Africa. Some of my opponents have done that recently and they have ended with 5-6 subs + more ships parked in SZ97 just convoying Italy to death. Easy after that to capture Italy/Greece/anything you fancy, and reinforce Russia from the middle-east. Putting SOME pressure in Africa and at least trying in the Med is essential for Axis IMO.


  • @atease:

    Not sure about abandoning Africa. Some of my opponents have done that recently and they have ended with 5-6 subs + more ships parked in SZ97 just convoying Italy to death. Easy after that to capture Italy/Greece/anything you fancy, and reinforce Russia from the middle-east. Putting SOME pressure in Africa and at least trying in the Med is essential for Axis IMO.

    It normally is, I agree, but with this bomber strategy Italy’s support is vital to success and Italy can use Russian IPCs if they convoy them ;) Besides Italy doesn’t matter after they help take Moscow. That tank and mech are a world of difference in Russia turn 5. If they don’t sink the 2 transports/fleet, you can go back to Africa later turns.


  • Ok I see it. So if using the bomber strategyit’s better to just kamikaze the Tobruk stack in Egypt or perhaps gain some time by going West to Morocco?


  • What about making a house rule of putting a cap on the maximum number of bombers each country can have at any one time? Say 8 or 10 bombers. You can replace losses, but only up to the cap.


  • Again this is a houserule to defeat a strategy that was designed to use the current ruleset. It’s a new strategy, give it some time I’m sure there’s a counter.


  • @atease:

    Again this is a houserule to defeat a strategy that was designed to use the current ruleset. It’s a new strategy, give it some time I’m sure there’s a counter.

    garantua says that the strat was used in aa50. so it is just a rehash, although, I would love to know the counter for it for that game. playin the cards close to the chest on that one. heh, leads me to believe that a counter really exists, I am just noobin it.


  • @atease:

    AA guns discussed in length (then in length again) here http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.0

    My thought: AA guns are OK within their roles, are are worth more than their worth in IPCs only when knowing that you’ll be attacked by 3x or more planes per AA gun you own.

    Pretty epic thread.  So many fantastic ideas concerning the AA gun.  It does need some tweaking, too many arguments not too.  For now thought I am fixated on tryin to find a counter within the current ruleset.


  • I kind of like the new style of AA guns. I like that they have a limit of only 3 shots or number of planes if that is less. I didn’t like the idea that a single AA gun could fire at all your planes no matter how many you sent over. Also, I disagree that it is pointless to stack up AA guns, especially because of this limit and the growing stack of bombers that one will use in this new strategy.
    Say London only has 1 AA gun and Germany sends over 15 bombers. UK only gets to shoot at 3 of those bombers leaving 12 unworried. However, if UK stacks up 5 AA guns and Germany attacks with 15 bombers, all of those bombers will get a shot at them.
    Interesting ideas with the Italian units in Russia. I have heard of strategies with the Italians can opening in Russia for the Germans, but never understood just how they could do that with so little available. I guess if you send everything that Italy has and just leave whatever troops are left in Africa to suffer the mercy of the British, then maybe you could do some good in Russia. One thing that probably leads to my confusion is when we play, usually whomever plays Russia tends to stack pretty heavy along the border. While Germany can usually defeat the Russian defenses when they decide to attack, Italy usually doesn’t have enough men and equipment available to even take on one of Russia’s border territories, much less drive toward Moscow.
    You mentioned earlier about a stack of German bombers deployed in Asia to help the Japanese. Do you consider, as Germany, those bombers to be pretty much sacrificed? For example, say Japan has a few tanks and mechs in Yunnan. India is lightly defended but they have a stack of 10 infantry in Burma. Now suppose Germany has sent over 8 or 9 bombers. On Germany’s turn, those bombers could blast that stack of men in Burma and totally clear it. Then on Japan’s turn, their tanks and mechs simply blitz through Burma and take India.
    That would be a great help to Japan obviously. However, in attacking those 10 infantry with 8 or 9 bombers, if the UK gets some lucky rolls, you could lose as many as 6 or 7 of those bombers. Would that be a good sacrifice for Germany?


  • Your not going to build up AAA against a good player without paying for it severely

    AAA needs lower cost or more shots or go back to classic
    Right now it’s plain dumb to build AAA over other units


  • @knp7765:

    I kind of like the new style of AA guns. I like that they have a limit of only 3 shots or number of planes if that is less. I didn’t like the idea that a single AA gun could fire at all your planes no matter how many you sent over. Also, I disagree that it is pointless to stack up AA guns, especially because of this limit and the growing stack of bombers that one will use in this new strategy.
    Say London only has 1 AA gun and Germany sends over 15 bombers. UK only gets to shoot at 3 of those bombers leaving 12 unworried. However, if UK stacks up 5 AA guns and Germany attacks with 15 bombers, all of those bombers will get a shot at them.
    Interesting ideas with the Italian units in Russia. I have heard of strategies with the Italians can opening in Russia for the Germans, but never understood just how they could do that with so little available. I guess if you send everything that Italy has and just leave whatever troops are left in Africa to suffer the mercy of the British, then maybe you could do some good in Russia. One thing that probably leads to my confusion is when we play, usually whomever plays Russia tends to stack pretty heavy along the border. While Germany can usually defeat the Russian defenses when they decide to attack, Italy usually doesn’t have enough men and equipment available to even take on one of Russia’s border territories, much less drive toward Moscow.
    You mentioned earlier about a stack of German bombers deployed in Asia to help the Japanese. Do you consider, as Germany, those bombers to be pretty much sacrificed? For example, say Japan has a few tanks and mechs in Yunnan. India is lightly defended but they have a stack of 10 infantry in Burma. Now suppose Germany has sent over 8 or 9 bombers. On Germany’s turn, those bombers could blast that stack of men in Burma and totally clear it. Then on Japan’s turn, their tanks and mechs simply blitz through Burma and take India.
    That would be a great help to Japan obviously. However, in attacking those 10 infantry with 8 or 9 bombers, if the UK gets some lucky rolls, you could lose as many as 6 or 7 of those bombers. Would that be a good sacrifice for Germany?

    They are not sacrificed as they can still hit Russia when needed, but they also provide a headache for the allies in the Pacific.

    In my test game, I sent 3 bombers (I knew I could spare them as Moscow was falling Italy turn 4 or Germany turn 5) over to Asia, the reason: How many destroyers do the allies need to “block” Japan’s navy, if you have 3 “4’s” rolling against them?

    4 Destroyers? or 5? I think 3 destroyers would not be a “good” block as they will hit 1 bomber round 1, the bombers will hit 2 of them, then second round they are “cleared”. If you use 4 and the destroyers only hit once, as long as the 3 bombers hit twice, it is 2 bombers vs 2 destroyers and mutual annihilation “clears” the sea zone for Japan. So 5 would be needed and even then if the bombers got “lucky” and hit 3 times round 1, you had better hit twice with those 5 destroyers….that’s a lot of destroyers to throw away “blocking”. What do they do if they must block 2 or 3 zones? I argue, They can’t!

    This is helpful for 2 reasons:

    1. it can be used to attack India with Japan or the allied fleet after Germany clears the “blockers”
    2. If the allies leave 4-5 destroyers, you simply don’t attack with Germany, instead use Japanese air and navy to “1 shot” those 4-5 destroyers at a cost of 1 or 2 subs/dds. This forces trades against the allies favor and the bombers remain as “threat”…never used, but remain there to keep the allies “honest”

    Note: for land battles, infantry and destroyers hit the same, so this holds true on land as well, to “block” japan’s blitzers, India or China need 4-5 infantry against 3 bombers to keep Japan at bay. (Since Russia goes between both axis players, they can still get by with 1 unit, but they seldom have navy in the pacific to block with so the devastation is still true in the sea).


  • By the way, on my first test game, we just concluded round 5 (with the axis), that game will end turn 9 when the axis gather their 8th city on turn 8. After Anzac and France go, turn 5 will be over and I will post the solution. This was just the first test game, and others will behave differently so this game is not conclusive, but how many games end in a Europe VC win on turn 9?

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.new#new

    Please wait until the allies have finished round 5 before posting what you think I am going to do.


  • I replied on the game thread, but realized you may not get it.

    How can you say that so far in advance?  Don’t you need Cairo and Stalingrad?  Are you going Sealion?  London be tough with the allied fleet there.  Stalingrad may be a tough battle, but then again if its in danger he can just retreat the Russian stack to Cairo.  How do you get to 8 VCs in three turns?

    It looks as though Russia messed up early by stacking the Ukraine.  You cannot hold the Ukraine, so stacking in Belarus and Western Ukraine is better early, with a fallback to Bryansk.  Then at least the bulk of your army is in Moscow.  You cannot hold Leningrad- you should retreat from there to preserve your army for later.  Russia also did not go for Iraq… why not?  This is not representative of strong Russian play.

    Japan does not look very strong, not having any of the money islands, but I suppose you are just trying to win in Europe?


  • I sent you a private message outlining the next 3 turns, let me know if you agree.


  • Thanks.

  • '17 '16

    I put on a new tread in House Rule 3 posts in reply to the first one in this tread.

    My last solution (and not the better one) � :| is to raise back the bomber price to the original 15 IPCs.

    But, I think everyone like the 12 IPCs price which give more units on the board.
    That’s why I prefer the solutions posted in the HR tread.

    P.S. I know many prefer to stay inside the OOB rules, but the rules around Bombers (cost+AB move), SBR+interception and AA (vs AAA) has change often during the A&A improvement and maybe JamesAleman have find a blind spot which need some cure.

    Anyone an idea on this? Let’s explore it in the Houses Rules tread.


  • All interesting points but do you mind taking the SBR and AAA adjustments to another thread.  I’d like to see in game responses to this strategy that are being considered.


  • I don’t know why so many of you are exploring different house rules when I am pretty convinced that there is a way to beat this strategy, just not discovered yet. It’s not even proven to be even better than the regular axis strategies.


  • @bongaroo:

    All interesting points but do you mind taking the SBR and AAA adjustments to another thread.  I’d like to see in game responses to this strategy that are being considered.

    I didn’t want to derail this tread but point some weak aspects of the OOB in regard of this Bombers strategy.

    I moved my posts according to your suggestion.

    Let’s have two parallel treads on this interesting topic.  :-)


  • @atease:

    I don’t know why so many of you are exploring different house rules when I am pretty convinced that there is a way to beat this strategy, just not discovered yet. It’s not even proven to be even better than the regular axis strategies.

    I don’t know if there is so many. Of course, it takes time to get a full-proof evidence on this matter.
    But I find some good defense and justifications of this strategy: JamesAleman and Gargantua seem to me very good advocate.

    For now, it’s only a working hypothesis.
    If anyone interesting on house rule adjustment can discuss it on the other tread.

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