Who Wins

[Chacmool]

Sounds reasonable if they were still allowed to move units in R1.
I like playing my historical scenario version:

In Round 1 Austria concentrates on Serbia, Montenegro (Albania) and Russia in the East, in Vienna they don`t bother about Italy, since it declared its neutrality early in August 14. Because of this, there were no significant troops in Tyrol or Trient.
When it comes to Italys turn they (collect income, build units and) move their troops to the borders in the north (lets say this is the phase were Britain and France convinced Italy to join them.)

In R2 (Spring 1915) Austria confronted with the Italian requirements and troop movements has now to protect its borders; not only in the east but also in the west! (mostly with “k.k.Standschützen”). The signs are clear that Rome has joined the Entente and will attack…

Does your suggestion for Italy joining R2 also mean that they weren`t allowed to move units in R1?

[GeneralTuna]

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

[Noll]

@GeneralTuna:

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

You will be surprised at how this game favors the Allies. It favors them so much that the creator is looking at optional rules to balance the game.
Even if the infantries deployed round1 looks inaccurate, the game as it is now kinda playes historically.
Russia gets a Revolution and stops fighting after like 6 rounds of play, but by that time the western front will be an impossible effort for Germany to take.
Also since Italy is “already at war” you should consider that after the DOW Italy nearly doubled their army by conscripting lots of young men (my grandftather fought at Caporetto against the Austrohungarian and German alliance at the age of 18).

[Chacmool]

CPs are your clear favorits because they have 6Inf and 1Art more than the Allies in R1?

Never had that impression…

Look at the naval Set up and then look at the Starting IPCs:

Central =    77 IPCs  
Allies    = 113 IPCs

[GeneralTuna]

@Chacmool:

CPs are your clear favorits because they have 6Inf and 1Art more than the Allies in R1?

Never had that impression…

Look at the naval Set up and then look at the Starting IPCs:

Central =    77 IPCs  
Allies    = 113 IPCs

I guess what I find most puzzling is the relatively puny size of the Russian Army.  The Central Powers have a huge concentration of inf and art right on russia’s doorstep.  One thing I didn’t consider is the 18 inf, 3 art the allies have in neutral countries in the east as opposed to only 5 inf an 1 art for bulgaria.  But the Turks have a large standing army as well which seems to offset that (yes I know I haven’t played so I’m largely talking out of my ass but I can’t help it as I’m very excited to give this a go.)

[GeneralTuna]

@Noll:

@GeneralTuna:

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

You will be surprised at how this game favors the Allies. It favors them so much that the creator is looking at optional rules to balance the game.
Even if the infantries deployed round1 looks inaccurate, the game as it is now kinda playes historically.
Russia gets a Revolution and stops fighting after like 6 rounds of play, but by that time the western front will be an impossible effort for Germany to take.
Also since Italy is “already at war” you should consider that after the DOW Italy nearly doubled their army by conscripting lots of young men (my grandftather fought at Caporetto against the Austrohungarian and German alliance at the age of 18).

I’ll admit my attention is focused almost solely on the Eastern Front due to it being so important in the other axis games.  The idea of a stagnant western front will be a novel and refreshing challenge.

[Flashman]

Yes. A country not at war should not behave as though it is. It should not be able to store income for military purposes, nor buy armed forces more than its normal peace-time establishment (i.e. it’s starting units and disposition).

My point above is that if Italy is going to collect income and build and move units on R1 even if not at war, then I cannot see Austria not attacking Venice R1; unless it has no intention of ever going for Rome.

@Chacmool:

Does your suggestion for Italy joining R2 also mean that they weren`t allowed to move units in R1?

[Chacmool]

I am with you that Italy should not collect income and purchase units in R1.

But I disagree with the movement restriction.
Why should Italy not be allowed to move troops into Venice/Piedmont to “protect” (official reason for this action before declaring war) their borders in R1?

Actually I want to get into a more historical scenario with Italy beeing the aggressor in R2 and able to jump into AHs back in Tyrol or Triest.

But as the game plays now, every time AH strikes first and moves into Venice.

I never liked that (since LHs first front report) because it doesn`t feel like something AH would have done actually in 1914/15 nevertheless it blows Larrys mind…

[Flashman]

Big wind.

But like I say, unless you ban Austria from entering Venice R1 it will always do so as long as the alternative is allowing Italy to collect and spend money and place stronger defences on the Austrian border.

One alternative I proposed was this:

At the start of every Italian turn, if Italy is not yet at war, toss a coin. Heads means war, and Italy can do everything an at war nation can do straight away.

This puts Austria in a real dilemma: If it initiates a war with Italy on A1, it gets a start in Venice; but if it ignores Italy for now it might not have to fight on this front for several turns. After all, in 1914 nobody knew when Italy would join in, or even (for sure) on which side.

Italy joining in with the Central Powers produces all kinds of balance issues, but prevaricating about when to declare war is not seriously game breaking.

In a wider view, I consider that each nation has three stages:

1. At Peace.
In this state, units should be distributed evenly throughout homeland provinces, the fleet in home port, and proportionately realistic garrisons in colonies. In the game such a nation collects no income and neither builds nor moves units.

2. Mobilization.
The nation can move its units within home territory in preparation for planned attacks and anticipated enemy movements. In the game, all nations going to war round one get a mobilization turn, the moves of which are written in secret and revealed and implemented simultaneously. On its next turn it is fully At War.

3. At War
A neutral nation which is attacked goes straight to At War status. A neutral nation declaring War (e.g. Italy on I2) must undergo a mobilization first.

Hence, Austria would have to think carefully about bringing Italy into the fight earlier than it needs to.

[Chacmool]

Ignoring the original Set up (with its random 6Infs and 2Arts) during the mobilzation stage would be really interesting.
Before crossing borders for the first time in R1, everybody writes down where he puts his units on the map.

This would bring up some serious questions:
Should Germany do the Schlieffenplan and leave Prussia undefended or should they be more agressive in the East?
Where will the Russians make their first attacks? and so on…

Write it down on something like this chart:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/90842/axis-allies-1914-mid-game-record-sheet

It would make the game more unforseeable for sure.

[Texas Holders]

@GeneralTuna:

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

You forgot to count the units for the minor allied countries, the Allies actually start with more units when you include them in the count.

[zanetheinsane]

@Tyberius:

I guess what I find most puzzling is the relatively puny size of the Russian Army.  The Central Powers have a huge concentration of inf and art right on russia’s doorstep.

It is very deceptive. Russia has the strength that all of their starting units can easily mobilize in one territory: the Ukraine. The Russian “super stack” round one is immensely intimidating at the start of the game and the Central Powers have to walk on eggshells in the Russian territories, planning each move carefully.

If you slip up on a single move or attack as the central powers, Russia can bring the hammer down and wipe out your forces on one side. Germany and Austria have to work together. You don’t beat Russia in this game by force, you beat them by outmaneuvering them and forcing the Russian revolution. In all of our games when the Russian revolution happens Russia still has an overwhelming mass of troops left in one spot. The trick is that you have to make it so that Russia can’t risk splitting up so many troops to attack everywhere or else they leave Moscow too weak to defend and Germany or Austria will simply conquer Russia.

Instead of a brute smash it’s more of a cat and mouse. Russia will still be making 15-17 IPCs even toward the end and can still pump out troops all the way to the end. With their starting units and a few rounds of buildup the Central Powers are easily looking at fighting against a 60+ infantry stack and a decent amount of artillery.

Much like in AA40 Global, if Russia could defeat Germany by itself the game would pretty much be over before it started. However, if Russia does prevail I highly advise calling the game over at that point, because Russia will become a beast and France will become unstoppable.

[GeneralTuna]

@zanetheinsane:

@Tyberius:

I guess what I find most puzzling is the relatively puny size of the Russian Army.  The Central Powers have a huge concentration of inf and art right on russia’s doorstep.

It is very deceptive. Russia has the strength that all of their starting units can easily mobilize in one territory: the Ukraine. The Russian “super stack” round one is immensely intimidating at the start of the game and the Central Powers have to walk on eggshells in the Russian territories, planning each move carefully.

If you slip up on a single move or attack as the central powers, Russia can bring the hammer down and wipe out your forces on one side. Germany and Austria have to work together. You don’t beat Russia in this game by force, you beat them by outmaneuvering them and forcing the Russian revolution. In all of our games when the Russian revolution happens Russia still has an overwhelming mass of troops left in one spot. The trick is that you have to make it so that Russia can’t risk splitting up so many troops to attack everywhere or else they leave Moscow too weak to defend and Germany or Austria will simply conquer Russia.

Instead of a brute smash it’s more of a cat and mouse. Russia will still be making 15-17 IPCs even toward the end and can still pump out troops all the way to the end. With their starting units and a few rounds of buildup the Central Powers are easily looking at fighting against a 60+ infantry stack and a decent amount of artillery.

Excellent point.  Looking at the map I can see how a blustering player can very easily botch things on the Eastern Front.  But surely, most players with a fair amount of A&A experience should be able to shrewdly maneuver the Russian stack into a contested fight in Moscow?  I agree, the Russian army cannot be so big that the game becomes lopsided in favor of the allies.  However, making the Austrian army larger than the Russian one is far more historically inaccurate than allowing the U.S. to offload troops to Europe in turns 1 to 3.  At least the U.S. was shipping war goods to the allies in the early years of the war.  But AHO with a larger army than Russia when the reality was that the Russian Army was twice the size of the Austrian one?  It’s a major historical flub.  While I’m at it, I’m not a big fan of assigning a 1 IPC value to Switzerland which instead should have just been labeled “Swiss Alps” and declared unpassable.

Still, this map looks AWESOME and this game has an epic scope on the scale of A&A 50th Anniversary, which is my favorite of all the games.  Wish the game would already hurry up and get here.

[zanetheinsane]

It is true that the AH army is very large, but AH cannot afford to send a large chunk of that without risking letting Italy out of the box. We made that mistake on our first game. Italy doesn’t make a lot of money but they start with a good amount of units and can crank out a 5-chip per turn to drop on their stack unless you hit them hard and trap them early.

Italy being in Trieste and Tyrolia can end up being a game-ender.

[BJCard]

@Tyberius:

@zanetheinsane:

@Tyberius:

I guess what I find most puzzling is the relatively puny size of the Russian Army.  The Central Powers have a huge concentration of inf and art right on russia’s doorstep.

It is very deceptive. Russia has the strength that all of their starting units can easily mobilize in one territory: the Ukraine. The Russian “super stack” round one is immensely intimidating at the start of the game and the Central Powers have to walk on eggshells in the Russian territories, planning each move carefully.

If you slip up on a single move or attack as the central powers, Russia can bring the hammer down and wipe out your forces on one side. Germany and Austria have to work together. You don’t beat Russia in this game by force, you beat them by outmaneuvering them and forcing the Russian revolution. In all of our games when the Russian revolution happens Russia still has an overwhelming mass of troops left in one spot. The trick is that you have to make it so that Russia can’t risk splitting up so many troops to attack everywhere or else they leave Moscow too weak to defend and Germany or Austria will simply conquer Russia.

Instead of a brute smash it’s more of a cat and mouse. Russia will still be making 15-17 IPCs even toward the end and can still pump out troops all the way to the end. With their starting units and a few rounds of buildup the Central Powers are easily looking at fighting against a 60+ infantry stack and a decent amount of artillery.

Excellent point.  Looking at the map I can see how a blustering player can very easily botch things on the Eastern Front.  But surely, most players with a fair amount of A&A experience should be able to shrewdly maneuver the Russian stack into a contested fight in Moscow?  I agree, the Russian army cannot be so big that the game becomes lopsided in favor of the allies.  However, making the Austrian army larger than the Russian one is far more historically inaccurate than allowing the U.S. to offload troops to Europe in turns 1 to 3.  At least the U.S. was shipping war goods to the allies in the early years of the war.  But AHO with a larger army than Russia when the reality was that the Russian Army was twice the size of the Austrian one?  It’s a major historical flub.  While I’m at it, I’m not a big fan of assigning a 1 IPC value to Switzerland which instead should have just been labeled “Swiss Alps” and declared unpassable.

Still, this map looks AWESOME and this game has an epic scope on the scale of A&A 50th Anniversary, which is my favorite of all the games.  Wish the game would already hurry up and get here.

No army in any A&A game is historically accurate beyond the basic ‘Germany had a lot of subs and Japan had aircraft carriers.’  Additionally, there is no distinction between units- a German tank is the same as a british one, so they have to fudge the numbers a bit.  This is to make the game balanced, or else you would have the same result as the real wars- Germany and her allies losing.