DK's Strategic Bombing Rules - submitted for your review

[toblerone77]

@Baron: I like the simplicity of the classic SBR rules, and I think there’s room for some type of interception. I don’t want to derail the topic by going into my version of IPC and production theory however. I think there’s a better way and I like some these ideas getting kicked around.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

@Baron: I like the simplicity of the classic SBR rules, and I think there’s room for some type of interception. I don’t want to derail the topic by going into my version of IPC and production theory however. I think there’s a better way and I like some these ideas getting kicked around.

Please let us know.

I’m actually working on a way to balance dangerous “1” against bomber and a way to give room for interception and escort.

For now what do you think of this?

To promote more aircrafts battle let’s up to 2 fighters escorts on 1 SBR and making another 1 combat mission with 1 or 2 of the surviving Fgt of this SBR.

Reason: I think many players are reluctant to engage 1 Bomber on SBR as soon as their is one Fgt on a IC territory because they need fighters elsewhere. Results: far less more SBR and no aircraft battle.

[BJCard]

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

[toblerone77]

@BJCard:

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

You may be right. However I think SBR (as well as commerce raiding) really should play a better role in any WWII game.

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

That’s the point.
The idea is to engage Fgt in SBR and more usefull battle.
Normally, not all Fgt in SBR should be lost, � maybe 1 from 1 side or the other, because “1” and “2” and a single round is not made to obliterate all aircrafts in a SBR.

The attacking player gain the advantage of using twice his Fgt instead of a single escort round with no benefit or impact (even negative ones because these Fgt were needed elsewhere) as long as the defender keep his Fgts grounded.

I think it should be a kind of calculated risk for both side like:
“If I engage Fgt escort, it will not become a waste of usefull units because the other side put no interceptors.”
The defender should pay somehow for not protecting is IC from StrB.
The other way, the attacker should pay for letting StrB unprotected against interceptors.

If you want more SBR and aircraft battle you should have some “gain” in it with some risk also but not too overwhelming odds.
So everyone would see an advantage in playing it or real penalty in not doing it.

If not, you got 2 situations: a) regular SBR on unprotected IC, or b) no SBR at all if any Fgt is in the territory.

The game has units and opportunity to simulate something that happen often in WWII (SBR and aerial combat) but the rules give no interest or strategic advantage in doing it, so nobody wants to play it. That is very understandable.

The simplest way is to give up and say: keep it simple: no escort, no interceptor only 1 IC AAA against each bomber.

But I think together we can find other interesting ways to play SBR.

[BJCard]

Well, my point wasn’t to ‘give up,’ but to either:

A) make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run

B) make bombing runs more deadly.  Like- instead of repairing IC at the beginning of your turn and then being able to build there at the end, perhaps the IC only gets repaired at the end of the turn and if your major had 8 damage, you can only build two units there this turn.  (Maybe you can always build at least one unit).  This would certainly get more bombing runs and more interceptor/escorts involved.

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).
UK gets bombed once in a while in London, but rarely hurts because they are building in the Middle East/South Africa/Canada.
Russia gets bombed sometimes- but rarely in Leningrad or Ukraine because the Germans would just have to repair them when they take them.
If Japan is getting bombed then they are already losing the game.

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

Well, my point wasn’t to ‘give up,’ but to either:

A) make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run

B) **make bombing runs more deadly.**� � Like- instead of repairing IC at the beginning of your turn and then being able to build there at the end, perhaps the IC only gets repaired at the end of the turn and if your major had 8 damage, you can only build two units there this turn.� � (Maybe you can always build at least one unit).� � This would certainly get more bombing runs and more interceptor/escorts involved.

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).
UK gets bombed once in a while in London, but rarely hurts because they are building in the Middle East/South Africa/Canada.
Russia gets bombed sometimes- but rarely in Leningrad or Ukraine because the Germans would just have to repair them when they take them.
If Japan is getting bombed then they are already losing the game.

I think that is one of the breakthrough of this tread:

“make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run.”

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).

Maybe it’s depend if playing 1940 or other version 1942.2. (I played 1942 and it is the more frequent type of SBR).

make bombing runs more Deadly

I think we can also play on this factor: increase or decrease damage according to the situation.
Example: StrB alone make more damage (1D6+2) vs regular 1D6
StrB + escort vs interceptor: regular damage 1D6
Even damaged StrB could still bomb IC, maybe 1D3 (1D6/2).

The objective is to create a real motive in doing SBR and interception.

[Der Kuenstler]

After learning some more about the math I’ve come to the conclusion that the best SB rules are in the latest edition.

From AA1940 SE:
1. All attacking  planes fire @1
2. All defending planes fire @1
Remove casualties. Bombers proceed to take aa fire.

That’s it.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction. I just don’t see how to make it better.

Once a bomber faces one interceptor @1 and then one aa gun @1, he’s already has a 1/3 chance of being shot down, right? That’s double the worst losses ever historically! You can’t reduce the odds either, due to the limits of the D6 dice.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Der:

After learning some more about the math I’ve come to the conclusion that the best SB rules are in the latest edition.Â

From AA1940 SE:
1. All attacking  planes fire @1
2. All defending planes fire @1
Remove casualties. Bombers proceed to take aa fire.

That’s it.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction. I just don’t see how to make it better.

Once a bomber faces one interceptor @1 and then one aa gun @1, he’s already has a 1/3 chance of being shot down, right? That’s double the worst losses ever historically! You can’t reduce the odds either, due to the limits of the D6 dice.

This situation at 1/3 to being shot down is in worst case: StrB with no escort Fgt.
That’s why the OOB 1940 SBR rules destroy Fgts escort first. To reduces this high rates of casuality in StrB ranks.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction.

Retreat for the attacker is in A&A system rules.
Instead of “must turn back” “must retreat or can retreat”

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is my proposal D revised:

How to make a strategic bombing raid:

1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.

2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.

This battle lasts only one round.

1. All incoming escorts and bombers fire according to this scale,
and all casualties get to return fire before being eliminated  :

Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2
Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
**Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

2. All interceptors then fire against the incoming planes:

When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.

StrBomber in SBR only, can take a hit before being destroy.
But if it receives this hit, the StrB can still do bombing
(Damage 1940: 1D6 / Damage 1942.1&.2: 1D6/2= 1D3).
Damaged StrB are repaired at the end of turn like BB in 1942.1&.2

After the airbattle round, any StrB can retreat without submitting to AAA fire.

3. All casualties, both sides, are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.

4. Surviving bombers will face AAA Fire from the defending territory’s IC.

StrB (and TcB going against NB and AB) must endure AAA fire before bombing IC (or NB & AB) as usual.

AAA fires 2 dices against each StrB and only one against TacB.
For each “1” it gets a hit against this specific aircraft.

**If it is a TacB, then it is destroy,

if it is an undamaged StrB, then it became damaged but cannot make any bombing drop on IC (or NB & AB),

if this undamaged StrB receives 2 hits (rolls of “1” “1”), then it is destroyed.

if it is a StrB already damaged by interceptors, then it is destroyed.**

Thus any StrB not hit by AAA can bomb the IC:
undamaged at        1D6+2 (1940) or 1D6 (1942)
damaged by aircraft 1D6 (1940) or 1D3 (1942)

Ex.: So 3 StrB can endure 3 hits without being destroy and they can bomb IC (at reduce damage).
In the same situation another player can decide to destroy 1 StrB, and proceed with one undamaged Bomber to attack the IC and keep another damaged bomber (yet to decide to retreat or not).
In case of a mixed group of StrB and TcB, it is the attacking player as usual which decides casualty: destroying a TcB or taking a hit on a StrB.

5. BOMBING DAMAGE:
Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB, AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.

But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR  or TcB get a free ride without interceptors, the bombing damage get fiercer:
2D6 keep the better one and add +2. (As if it was a heavy bomber).
If playing 1942.1/1942.2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
For Tactical Bomber this could be 1D6+2.
I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.

StrB now still can be destroy even behind a screen of escort Fgts.

However, StrB get better chance to survive than in the previous “Bomber are priority target rule”.

So this precious unit is not on a suicidal runs and if they past the AAA can still deliver what 1940 OOB rules say: 1D6+2.

In the case you SBR with more than 1 StrB you now have a tactical decision to make when interceptors got more than 1 hit on your Bombers. In 1940, you may even choose between a TcB or a StrB.

*** I modified the escorting Fgt with 1@2/2 Fgts to get the exact ratio of number divided by 2 for aircraft against ground target:
Fgt Def4/2=2 Fgt A3/2=1.5   TcB and StrB are still inferiors in dogfight with their @1.

This rules are quite similar to navy battle including BB so it respects the A&A system rules and are not too complex.

It does not contradict history in the way that even when the StrB were priority target, the Fgts doesn’t have the choice to engage the escort screen and sometimes destroy the escort Fgt instead of the bomber.

About the second hit for StrB, don’t forget that it is a whole flight of maybe 100 bombers and not only 1 plane. So many can be crippled, delayed, lost fuel, lost their way, etc. so they weren’t able to reach their target and have to get back home. Thus a damaged StrB unit, can have repair the older ones, and add some new Bombers to reach their operational number.

I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compare to OOB Global 1940 rule for escort that was realy protecting StrB behind escort Fgts.

What do you think of this new version?

Addition: actually under this HR, the defensive factor for interceptor is doubled from @1 to @2 (vs OOB Global 1940) to keep the balance for Tactical Bombers during SBR against Air Base or Naval Base, I suggest this conditionnal rule: if an air raid is performed solely by Tactical Bombers without any escorting fighter, then intercepting fighters defend @1 and their is still only one AA roll @1 against every single TacB.

[baron Münchhausen]

The main change I made in the later version is about AAA.
A StrB need two hits @1 to get down. So it means 1 /36 instead of 1 chance out 6 as before.

However, inspire by the “turn back” effect, I add the no bombing of IC when hit by AAA, thus getting a “1” with 2 dices give odds at 10/36. It is a bit higher than 6/36 (1/6) of the usual AAA.

The net result is:
the defender is slightly more protected from IPCs loose due to SBR,
and attacker is less subject to loose precious StrB due to lucky “1”.
This rule create some kind of a draw between them: no IPCs loose and no StrB lost.

Also a SBR without interception can still be more damaging.
But a SBR without escort can be risky because every Fgt @2, this raise odds to be hit @ 1/3 instead of keeping it low @ 1/6. However, after this first round of aircombat, the attacker has the option of retreat if he doesn’t want to risk damaged StrB against 10/36 odds to hit them.

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCARD
Some of your ideas inspire me this:

If 1 escort (or 1 TacB) and 1 interceptor are both hit, we can introduce this special rule:
both hits are negate for attacker and defender so neither fighters  (or TacB) are destroyed.  Priority is to destroy Strategical Bombers. There is still a minimum of 1 casuality from either side whether Fighter or Bomber (StratB or TacB).

In this way, it minimizes the dramatic effect of attrition on precious units so for each SBR the loss are reduce on each sides, for examples:
we suppose that there was at least one StrB hit:
2 Fgts lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes      1 Fgt escort lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB and 1 Fgt lost vs 1 Int lost becomes      1 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes    0 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.

Of course, if attacker looses 2 Fgts and defender none, their is no trade off.

[BJCard]

Baron, I like the last version you just posted.

Especially the punishment for defender not scrambling interceptors- 2D6 Damage!

And the ability for bombers to turn back if the air battle went foul.

Thanks!

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

Baron, I like the last version you just posted.Â

Especially the punishment for defender not scrambling interceptors- 2D6 Damage!

And the ability for bombers to turn back if the air battle went foul.Â

Thanks!

I’m glad to hear it!  :-D
Just to be sure, I intented  2DKeep1D6+2 for a SBR without interception.
Would you  prefer a real 2D6 of damage to IC, to make a must of interception for defender ?

[BJCard]

Well, either way could work.  with a 2D6 though- Interception is a must.

[toblerone77]

Had an idea I’ve been kicking around for years but never tried and may give some suggestion to th e topic. Day or night bombing. If you bomb during the day your SBR is more effective at night less effective but less risk to attackers. Now that we have tac bombers we have potential night fighters too. Before I probably would use regular bombers or adapt them for editions with no tac bombers. Additonally we have some units i.e. HBG  which would do nicely also.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Had an idea I’ve been kicking around for years but never tried and may give some suggestion to the topic. Day or night bombing. If you bomb during the day your SBR is more effective at night less effective but less risk to attackers. Now that we have tac bombers we have potential night fighters too. Before I probably would use regular bombers or adapt them for editions with no tac bombers. Additonally we have some units i.e. HBG  which would do nicely also.

You have probably a different idea, but this is a start.
If I try to integrate Night Bombing in the latter D proposition, here some possibility for a tactical choice by the attacker:

Damage to IC resulting from bombing:
              Day Bombing                               vs        Night Bombing  
Interceptors? No / yes / from Damaged StrB vs No / yes / from Damaged StrB
1940 ed.  (2D6Keep1D)+2 / 1D6+2 / 1D6     vs  1D6/   1D3+1 / 1D2
1942 ed.  1D6+2              / 1D6 /     1D3      vs  1D3+1/  1D3  / 1D2

Night StrB: their is no escort. Only StrB 1Att@1.
For SBR only, StrB must take 2 hits to get down.

Night interception: could be possible for half Fgt, rounding up, present on the IC territory. Reason: not all pilots are trained for night missions.
So if only 1 Fgt is present then 1 interceptor.
If 2 Fgts then only 1 Fgt can intercept the StrB, 3 Fgts then 2 Fgts, 4 then 2, etc.
Because of the night, Fgt Def@1.

[Addition: another option is to only keep this single rule and allow any number of fighters on interception:  [i]Because of the night, Fgt interceptor Def@1.]

AAA still throw 2 dices for each StrB, any “1” hit the StrB and makes the Bombing get no effect on IC.
If the StrB was already damaged, then it is destroyed.
If the StrB was undamaged, then it can return home and be repaired.
If the StrB was undamaged but received 2 rolls @“1” from AAA, then it is destroyed.

The advantage is when attacker as two or more StrB, their will be very few interceptors against them and they only get 1 shot@1.
So the risk to be destroyed is around 1/36.
It is still a high 10/36 to block the bombing of the IC.

I don’t I have any idea for TacB against NB and AB.
Any suggestion?

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is my proposal new simplified E version inspired by 1942.2 SBR:

How to make a strategic bombing raid:

1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.

2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.

This battle lasts only one round.

1. All incoming escorts fire first (first strike), then remove interceptor casualties.
After, bombers fire according to this scale, and all other casualties from TcB or StB get to return fire before being eliminated :

Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2 As in 1942.2 SBR.
Fighter escort @1 First strike. As in 1942.2 SBR.
Tactical bomber @1 As in 1940.2 TacBR.
Strategical bomber @0, but can take 2 hits in SBR air combat
[[s]b]Optionnal: StrB get only 1@1 regardless of number of StB
Optionnal: strategical bomber @1 up to 1/StB or 1/Fg interceptor, which ever is less.
Basically, each StB works like 1 single AA shot @1.
You cannot have more shot than the number of StB or Fg. So the max is 1 shot per Fg.

2. All interceptors fire against the incoming planes:

StrBomber in the 1 rnd air combat of an SBR, can take a hit before being destroyed.
But if it receives this hit, the StrB cannot do any damage on IC
Any damaged StrB are destroyed at the end of this SBRaid

After the air combat round, any damaged StrB can still be submit to AAA fire and be taken as casualties.

3. All casualties from bombers and interceptors are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.

4. Surviving bombers will face AAA fire from the defending territory’s IC.

StrB (and TcB going against NB and AB) must endure AAA fire before bombing IC (or NB & AB) as usual.

AAA fires 1 dice against each StrB and TacB.
For each “1” it gets a hit and owner’s choose casualties.

If it is a TcB, then it is destroy,

if it is an undamaged StB, then it is also destroyed.

As said above, any damaged StB cannot make any bombing drop on IC (or NB & AB), but can be taken as casualty instead of any other StB or TcB.

Thus any undamaged StB not hit by AAA can bomb the IC:
at 1D6+2 (1940) or 1D6 (1942)

Ex.:
3 StBs can endure 2 hits from interceptors on the same StB without destroying the other two StB and both can bomb IC.

If there was two escorting fighters, the attacking player have to choose between destroying
a) 2 Fgs,
b) destroying 1 Fg and damaging 1 StB or
c)destroying 1 StB.
During the AAA phase, any “1” rolled destroy a StB but let’s suppose AAA got 1 hit:
net result for…
a) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs and 1 StB
b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
c) 1 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 StBs.

Let’s suppose there was no hit from IC’s AA:
a) 3 StB bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs
b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
c) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost no Fg and 1 StB

Do you see the challenge of the attacker when choosing hits during the aircombat phase?

5. BOMBING DAMAGE:
Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB, AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.

But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR or TcB get a free ride without interceptors, the bombing damage get fiercer:
2D6 keep the better one and add +2. (As if it was a heavy bomber).
If playing 1942.1/1942.2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
For Tactical Bomber this could be 1D6+2.
I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.

StrB still can be destroy even behind a screen of escort Fgts.

I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compare to OOB Global 1940 rule for escort that was really protecting StrB behind escort Fgts.

What do you think of this version of SBR?

[Derek]

Why would fighters escorting get first strike? If anything interceptors would get first strike.
Why would bombers not shoot? Bombers were armed to the teeth.

Why is this better than OOB?
I dont think its better than OOB…Its more ahistorical and more complicated at the same time. And it actually makes SBR stronger, which is the opposite of what we need.

For G40, giving interceptors rolls @2 is mitigation enough to SBR. (42.2 OOB rules) And simple. And more historical.

:wink:

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is how I see the problem, I share the same view as Der Kuenstler:

@Der:

After learning some more about the math I’ve come to the conclusion that the best SB rules are in the latest edition.Â

From AA1940 SE:
1. All attacking  planes fire @1
2. All defending planes fire @1
Remove casualties. Bombers proceed to take aa fire.

That’s it.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction. I just don’t see how to make it better.

Once a bomber faces one interceptor @1 and then one aa gun @1, he’s already has a 1/3 chance of being shot down, right? That’s double the worst losses ever historically! You can’t reduce the odds either, due to the limits of the D6 dice.

I don’t like the SBR of Global 1940, too much uniformity between all aircrafts.

I prefer the 1942.2, I found more historical :
In 1942.2 both Fg and StB get first strike @1 to counter the better effectiveness of defender @2.
Sometimes, defenders are caught off gard but once in the air, have the advantage.
At least, defending fighter are better than StB.

In SBR in general, the defender have the choice to intercept or not. (And many times, the presence alone of 1 or 2 Fg is enough to rebuke the SBR strategy.)

But the attacker can choose the IC target and how many planes will attack, and usually aim at the least defended (that’s why I think interceptor need @2).

But…
If the SBR is far more dangerous than 1/6 as was a regular classic AAA you obtain far less SBR.
So instead of promoting it, raising interceptor @2 will increase the risk, on 1:1 basis, to 2/6 + 1/6= 50%
Who will risk any StB on a SBR?

I think a good SBR need more balance (first) than historical accuracy (second).

By proposing a StB that can take 2 hits, but useless after the first hit for anything else except taking another hit,  it is a way to lower the risk inside a more acceptable range.
But every defender hit still have an impact.

All bombers loose their first strike @1, but TcB keep reg @1 and StB @0 can take more punishment and all the defending interceptors can keep @2.

The main goal here is a balance SBR with a lesser risk to loose many attacking aircrafts.

StB are @0 to eliminate any StB spam strategy.
I let the option of 1@1 for all attacking StB (regardless of their number) to let them have at least a small offensive factor vs plane.

For night bombing, I suggest no interceptor and no escort, only the classic SBR vs AA @1 but bombing damage will be halfed.