Russian Civil War

[Flashman]

This is a draft of my alternative Russian Revolution Rules. There is still one major problem to resolve; you may see some more.

THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION AND CIVIL WAR

An alternative approach to the Russian Revolution in Axis and Allies WWI 1914.

You will need a set of Russian pieces from a WWII version of Axis and Allies to represent the Bolsheviks. This should be recent enough to include artillery pieces. You also need the Soviet control markers.

There are various way of determining when Revolution occurs, but it should only be on a Central Powers turn, as it is largely to the benefit of that Alliance. One simple method (IL) is based on Russian income falling below a certain level (8?)  Moscow counts as one “Capital” captured by the Central Powers for victory purposes, as long as it remains under Red control.

We are concerned here with the Bolshevik Revolution of October/November 1917; that of February/March did not overtly affect the coarse of the war.

The Revolution divides Russia into two warring factions, the Bolsheviks or “Reds” controlled by the Central Powers, and the Royalists or “Whites” controlled by the original Allied Russian player. The Whites use the original Russian units and control markers.

The Russian tts are divided according to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, signed by the Bolsheviks and Central Powers on March 3rd 1918.

Areas to the west and south of this line are referred to here as “Lesser Russia”, those remaining as “Greater Russia”, Greater Russia being Karelia, Moscow & Tartarstan.

When Revolution occurs, Greater Russian tts become Red. All Russian units in these areas are replaced with Red units. The Bolshevik regime in effect becomes a new member of the Central Powers alliance, and should be set up with its own unit supply, money and marker on the NP chart. In the turn order it is placed between Italy and the USA. It should be given all the money saved by Russia on its previous turn. Any tts in Greater Russia controlled by the CPs are immediately handed over to the Reds, though units may remain. Reds and CP units are now allies, and do not contest tt with each other.

Any remaining Russian naval units take a vote on which side to support: roll a die for each fleet (that is all naval units in one SZ); 1-3 Red, 4-6 White.

To represent the large number of prisoners of war released after the treaty, place in the mobilization zone 1 infantry unit for each of the CPs (now including the Reds) for each complete game turn that has passed. These units are brought back into play on their respective power’s turn as normal infantry but cost nothing.

Red Russia acts like any other Central Power except that its units can never move outside original Russian tt under any circumstances. The tts ceded to the original Central Powers must be handed over to their control, though Red units can enter these areas and fight with other CPs. The three original powers can decide between themselves who is given control of which ceded tt, though an infantry unit must be present to take physical control before a marker can be placed.

White Russian units can operate anywhere. However unless they recapture Moscow, they cannot build mechanical units. Until then, White Russia collects no income, but it may place infantry units as follows: 1 in any Russian tt it controls at the end of its turn. It gets none for contested tt.

The other Allies may fight together with the Whites, and any original Russian tt they capture becomes White Russian controlled.

Any tts outside Russia that were Russian controlled remain as White tts, but are of course not invulnerable to CP attacks - no force fields!

If the Whites gain control of Moscow, they may immediately start collecting money and building units. They of course capture any money that the reds may have stashed away.
The Reds now become the anti-government forces once more, and can place only infantry units as described above for White Russia.

Even if one Russian faction loses all units and tts, it continues in the hope that its allies will liberate a tt and it can start another revolution.

Problem: other Allied units in Russia.
Need a plausible method of preventing the other Allies from piling units into GR to stop the Bolsheviks getting started. On my map Karelia and Petrograd are separate tts…
A blanket ban on them entering Russian tt seems very arbitrary. They will very likely want to send units by sea to Karelia to prevent the Germans taking it.
Maybe the rule has to be that:
No units of other Allies may enter Greater Russian tt before the Revolution unless it is to attack CP units there. Once liberated (Russian controlled) they must leave. Not satisfied with this.

Variant: Joint Capitals.

Petrograd and Moscow vied for the status of Russia’s capital city. At the start of the game, consider them as joint capitals. Russia may place new units in either or both.  Holding BOTH cities counts as ONE capital for victory conditions. It is possible for each to be held by a different Russian faction; in this case each may collect money and build units as normal.

[ossel]

@Flashman:

Variant: Joint Capitals.

Petrograd and Moscow vied for the status of Russia’s capital city. At the start of the game, consider them as joint capitals. Russia may place new units in either or both.  Holding BOTH cities counts as ONE capital for victory conditions. It is possible for each to be held by a different Russian faction; in this case each may collect money and build units as normal.

I like this. The prisoner of war thing is a little too complicated…Also, I’m not too worried about the Allies piling units into Greater Russia; if they’ve got units and transports to spare to send to Russia, Germany will probably be doing well on the Western Front.

Also see my question on the ‘Images of the Map’ thread.

[oztea]

This all seems remarkably complicated and doesn’t seem like it will mesh well with the OOB box map.

[wove100]

The other problem. If Russia is only collecting 8 IPCs, there aren’t going to be many Russian units left.

At least under Larry’s Russian Revolution trigger, potentially 6 of 10 Russian territories could still have units in them.

[TheVenocWarlord]

@oztea:

This all seems remarkably complicated and doesn’t seem like it will mesh well with the OOB box map.

Trim some of the fat off the rules (including the Joint Capitals) and it will mesh well.

I’m certainly interested in it as a variant.

[valtteri771]

Shouldnt Kazakhstan be  part of the “Greater Russia”?
I also think that the prisoners of war idea is a bit complicated for this.

[Flashman]

Initially I thought so, but the history says differently. Russia did not conscript soldiers from this region, and when they tried they had a full scale revolt on their hands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmachi

[valtteri771]

Random ideas

After revolution Finland turns into pro Germany neutral. Karelia stays as white russian territory and they can build units there.

[Richter von Manthofen]

@Flashman:

This is a draft of my alternative Russian Revolution Rules. There is still one major problem to resolve; you may see some more.

THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION AND CIVIL WAR

An alternative approach to the Russian Revolution in Axis and Allies WWI 1914.

You will need a set of Russian pieces from a WWII version of Axis and Allies to represent the Bolsheviks. This should be recent enough to include artillery pieces. You also need the Soviet control markers.

There are various way of determining when Revolution occurs, but it should only be on a Central Powers turn, as it is largely to the benefit of that Alliance. One simple method (IL) is based on Russian income falling below a certain level (8?)  Moscow counts as one “Capital” captured by the Central Powers for victory purposes, as long as it remains under Red control.

We are concerned here with the Bolshevik Revolution of October/November 1917; that of February/March did not overtly affect the coarse of the war.

The Revolution divides Russia into two warring factions, the Bolsheviks or “Reds” controlled by the Central Powers, and the Royalists or “Whites” controlled by the original Allied Russian player. The Whites use the original Russian units and control markers.

The Russian tts are divided according to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, signed by the Bolsheviks and Central Powers on March 3rd 1918.

Areas to the west and south of this line are referred to here as “Lesser Russia”, those remaining as “Greater Russia”, Greater Russia being Karelia, Moscow & Tartarstan.

When Revolution occurs, Greater Russian tts become Red. All Russian units in these areas are replaced with Red units. The Bolshevik regime in effect becomes a new member of the Central Powers alliance, and should be set up with its own unit supply, money and marker on the NP chart. In the turn order it is placed between Italy and the USA. It should be given all the money saved by Russia on its previous turn. Any tts in Greater Russia controlled by the CPs are immediately handed over to the Reds, though units may remain. Reds and CP units are now allies, and do not contest tt with each other.

Any remaining Russian naval units take a vote on which side to support: roll a die for each fleet (that is all naval units in one SZ); 1-3 Red, 4-6 White.

To represent the large number of prisoners of war released after the treaty, place in the mobilization zone 1 infantry unit for each of the CPs (now including the Reds) for each complete game turn that has passed. These units are brought back into play on their respective power’s turn as normal infantry but cost nothing.

Red Russia acts like any other Central Power except that its units can never move outside original Russian tt under any circumstances. The tts ceded to the original Central Powers must be handed over to their control, though Red units can enter these areas and fight with other CPs. The three original powers can decide between themselves who is given control of which ceded tt, though an infantry unit must be present to take physical control before a marker can be placed.

White Russian units can operate anywhere. However unless they recapture Moscow, they cannot build mechanical units. Until then, White Russia collects no income, but it may place infantry units as follows: 1 in any Russian tt it controls at the end of its turn. It gets none for contested tt.

The other Allies may fight together with the Whites, and any original Russian tt they capture becomes White Russian controlled.

Any tts outside Russia that were Russian controlled remain as White tts, but are of course not invulnerable to CP attacks - no force fields!

If the Whites gain control of Moscow, they may immediately start collecting money and building units. They of course capture any money that the reds may have stashed away.
The Reds now become the anti-government forces once more, and can place only infantry units as described above for White Russia.

Even if one Russian faction loses all units and tts, it continues in the hope that its allies will liberate a tt and it can start another revolution.

Problem: other Allied units in Russia.
Need a plausible method of preventing the other Allies from piling units into GR to stop the Bolsheviks getting started. On my map Karelia and Petrograd are separate tts…
A blanket ban on them entering Russian tt seems very arbitrary. They will very likely want to send units by sea to Karelia to prevent the Germans taking it.
Maybe the rule has to be that:
No units of other Allies may enter Greater Russian tt before the Revolution unless it is to attack CP units there. Once liberated (Russian controlled) they must leave. Not satisfied with this.

Variant: Joint Capitals.

Petrograd and Moscow vied for the status of Russia’s capital city. At the start of the game, consider them as joint capitals. Russia may place new units in either or both.  Holding BOTH cities counts as ONE capital for victory conditions. It is possible for each to be held by a different Russian faction; in this case each may collect money and build units as normal.

Nice - is your name suvorov on another board ;)

[Flashman]

Karelia is the obvious place for Allied intervention, so it may well end up contested between Allies and Reds. So if the Allies capture it, it reverts to White Russian and they can build there (mechanical units if we go with Petrograd as a production centre).

@valtteri771:

Random ideas

After revolution Finland turns into pro Germany neutral. Karelia stays as white russian territory and they can build units there.

[Shakespeare]

Just get some of the red Japanese units from AA Pacific and use those as the Bolcheviks.

[Flashman]

I prefer red Soviets from the original AAE.

They look more… Russian, somehow. And a Rising Sun control marker for the USSR?  Don’t know why, but the hammer & sycel on a Red Star seems more appropriate.

[BJCard]

@Flashman:

I prefer red Soviets from the original AAE.

They look more… Russian, somehow. And a Rising Sun control marker for the USSR?  Don’t know why, but the hammer & sycel on a Red Star seems more appropriate.

Agreed.

[ossel]

@Flashman:

I prefer red Soviets from the original AAE.

They look more… Russian, somehow. And a Rising Sun control marker for the USSR?  Don’t know why, but the hammer & sycel on a Red Star seems more appropriate.

I just can’t get over the fact that they have PPSH’s…Red Japanese are a little better, but I like the HBG early Russians the best.

And of course, I don’t think Shakespeare was suggesting using Japanese control markers.

[toblerone77]

Unless you already have red Japanese units they will be hard to come by. I’d go with HBG and they have tons of colors

[toblerone77]

I like this idea. The series has plenty of crazy convoluted rules that are supposed to be historical or realistic. I’m not saying they always are or aren’t. I don’t think this is a bad idea.  I like it.

[stroutqb22]

@Flashman:

Red Russia acts like any other Central Power except that its units can never move outside original Russian tt under any circumstances. The tts ceded to the original Central Powers must be handed over to their control, though Red units can enter these areas and fight with other CPs. The three original powers can decide between themselves who is given control of which ceded tt, though an infantry unit must be present to take physical control before a marker can be placed.

What did you mean by this paragraph, I don’t understand it.

[Flashman]

There is a line on the map dividing Russia as per the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. The Russian Bolsheviks get the core “Greater Russia” tts; the original CPs annex the rest.