I disagree. The rudder wasn’t damaged until the attack by the Swordfish. Up until that time Lutjens would have had a few options open to him when it came to avoiding the British.
That was me, sorry I wasn’t logged in.
The Yamato and Musashi were good for nice, big ships.
once i watched this show on the history channel about how germany was planning to build these 2 battleships that were TWICE the size of the Yamato and the Musashi. it was a long time ago, and i don’t remember much of it, but i think it was gonna have like 9+ 18inch guns, and all this other crazy junk, but they just never got around to building them. have any of you heard about this
I disagree. The rudder wasn’t damaged until the attack by the Swordfish. Up until that time Lutjens would have had a few options open to him when it came to avoiding the British.
The exact location of the Bismarck was known by May 25 (a day after Hood) - it would be a matter of time before British ships would’ve zeroed in on it. Also the damaged sustained from the Hood, put a limit on the Bismarck’s speed.
The Yamato and Musashi were good for nice, big ships.
Too bad they were rushed a not properly fitted. A major reason for its quick demise was due to lack of waterproofing.
Also the Japanese naval commanders at the time of the sinking of the Musashi were incomptent. Yamamoto had already been assassinated at the time. Had he gotten his way initially, the Yamato probably would have been having fun at Pearl Harbor.
@F_alk:
My favorite warship is the “Admiral Graf Spee”, a very early war merchant raider in the south atlantic, called a “pocket battleship”.
I agree with Falk! The adventures of the Admiral Graf Spee were a memmorable read(wherever I read it.)
I recall that the ‘Admiral’ was salvaged after the war. Some of the metal was used to make a special line of revolvers!
There is a game I played about 20 years ago involving the raids of the ‘Admiral’. A naval ‘Hit and Run’ with occassional refuel and resupply from transports referred to as ‘milch’(milk) cows.(What’s the Deutsch word for cows? Lemme guess! COWS?!
…German U-Boat sighted the carrier Ark Royal and battle cruiser Renown just before the carrier launched the strike that crippled the Bismark but her captainwas unable to do anything because he had no torpedoes left. Just another example of how much luck really does play in a war.".
I recall that the Uboot(?) raised periscope with one of vessels dead ahead and one dead astern. I think he had 4 empty torpedo tubes forward and 2 empty tubes aft.
Isn’t there an old gunslinger saying about always leaving one in the chamber for just this kinda situation?
Milkcow = Milchkuh
the nickname of the supply-subs the germans built. I think it was just a handful, not more than a dozen that entered service… and they were later than the Graf Spee (so the milkcows in the game must be surface ships).
THANKS for the clarification, F_k.
Sorry for the (now corrected) spelling of Deutsch.
I guess that was after the surface ships were in danger of extinction by Allied navies. Germany’s subs put to supply transport… they had to try something.
I gotta come in on TM Moses’ side on this one: Germany’s big-ship strategy in WWII was bad bad bad & I’ll tell you why. WARNING: This post will be very long…
Inspired by the stories of WWI ships like SMS Konigsberg and SMS Emden, Admiral Raeder was convinced that (failing Plan “Z”, the German buildup to take on the Royal Navy directly in line-of-battle, which wasn’t ready in time for the war) surface raiders operating singly & in small groups, supported by supply ships hidden in the vastnesses of the world’s oceans, could inflict tremendous damage to British shipping & tie down large numbers of British ships as a “force-in’being”. U-boats were the OBVIOUS choice for this task, but Raeder was stuck on his surface raiders. The ‘Scharnhorst’, ‘Gneisenau’ & all the “Deutschland”-class ships were purpose-built for surface-raiding, the Deutschland class (including ‘Graf Spee’) in particular w/ BC (battlecruiser) guns on a CA (heavy cruiser) hull. But he didn’t take into account that:
A.) All the WWI efforts w/ the possible exception of Emden (which was eventually sunk) were essentially failures…
B.) Detection technology such as aircraft recon & radar/radio spotting had VASTLY improved since that war…
C.) That SUBMARINES were immeasureably superior to big ships in the commerce-raiding role the same as always…
German gunnery & optics were–just as in WWI–superior to the British, but with a poorly-balanced (no CVs, not enough Detroyers, bad torpedoes) & poorly-supported fleet (Goering hated the Kriegsmarine & only rarely & then grudgingly allocated planes to them), such a bad strategy was doomed to failure. As an example–everyone keeps talking about ‘Bismarck’s failure to refuel before leaving Norway, Admiral Lutjen’s poor (that is to say, almost suicidal) decisions during the battle, etc. No one has mentioned what is, to me, the most crucial fact: through Norwegian patriots working w/ the British, and through aerial recon, the UK knew exactly when the ‘Bismarck’ had left harbor & roughly where they were headed. Not to mention that all German surface commanders (except torpedo-boats’) were given impossible instructions to engage at all costs, but also avoid damage at all costs! The mission was doomed to failure from the very start, ultimately because the strategy itself–that is, the surface-raider strategy–was flawed. U-BOATS COULD’VE & SHOULD’VE BEEN BUILT INSTEAD.
Thankfully for all of us, they weren’t!
Getting back to the main topic–‘Bismarck’ was a cool ship. I also am partial to the ‘Scharnhorst’-class because of their speed, relatively good armor for BCs & the fact that the ‘Scharnhorst’ & ‘Gneisenau’ were as far as I know the only ships IN HISTORY to defeat & sink a CV (I believe the HMS Glorious) w/ surface gunfire.
The ‘Graf Zeppelin’–Germany’s CV–would’ve been a cool ship had it ever been completed. Imagine “Sea-Stukas”! You get my drift…
As for British I think the HMS ‘Warspite’ is coolest. An oldie but a goodie–took hits at Jutland, killed MANY German DDs at Narvik, faught Italy at Cape Matapan, bombarded Normany on D-Day & faught kamikazes in the Pacific. Then it was broken up for scrap. Go figure…
For Japan, the CA ‘Kumano’. Just look it up…
For USA: the CA USS ‘San Francisco’. Charged a Japanese BC’s 14" guns at Guadalcanal & won (with help)! Oh, & also my Granddad’s friend (that is my Mom’s uncle) was serving on it at the time–might affect my judgement :D !
Funny–no one ever names U-boats as their faves. Raeder’s syndrome, I guess… :wink:
That is all. Return to your posts.
Ozone27
The ‘Scharnhorst’, ‘Gneisenau’ & all the “Deutschland”-class ships were purpose-built for surface-raiding, the Deutschland class (including ‘Graf Spee’) in particular w/ BC (battlecruiser) guns on a CA (heavy cruiser) hull.
AFAIK, there were three ships of the Deutschlans class:
Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee
The Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst belonged to the Scharnhorst class.
I agreee with the rest you wrote.
Getting back to the main topic–‘Bismarck’ was a cool ship. I also am partial to the ‘Scharnhorst’-class because of their speed, relatively good armor for BCs …
Of course, the Bismarck and the Tirpitz were of the Bismarck class, with a third ship of that class never being completed.
The ‘Graf Zeppelin’–Germany’s CV–would’ve been a cool ship had it ever been completed. Imagine “Sea-Stukas”! You get my drift…
I think the Ju87 R was a torpedo bomber, and the Ju87 C was designed as teh bomber to be used from a CV (but only operated from land bases, when the Graf Zeppelin project was canceled).
Funny–no one ever names U-boats as their faves. Raeder’s syndrome, I guess… :wink:
Then … U 47 :)
@F_k:
Then … U 47 :)
:lol: Cute, F_k.
@O_27:
The ‘Scharnhorst’, ‘Gneisenau’ & all the “Deutschland”-class ships were purpose-built for surface-raiding, the Deutschland class (including ‘Graf Spee’) in particular w/ BC (battlecruiser) guns on a CA (heavy cruiser) hull.
O_27’s wording appears to separate the “S” & “G”. The second sentence furthers my contention.
Xi’s correct, sorry about the obtuse wording! To clarify, the ships of the ‘Scharnhorst’-class were built to be conventional BCs–in theory at least, capable of outrunning BBs & outgunning all others, and were considered well-adapted for commerce-raiding. The ‘Deutschland’-class (so-called “pocket battleships”) were a style all their own with BC guns on a CA hull–supposedly perfect for the commerce-raiding role, since it could outgun even most CA escorts & still escape after the battle using their (again, theoretically)superior CA speed…
Of course, I never meant to suggest that ‘Bismarck’ & the ‘Scharnhorst’-class were the same ships either. Again, two separate trains of thought in one paragraph!
Sorry about the confusion…
Ozone27
O_27,
Thanks for the verification.
:)
English is tough enough as a first language for those of us who learn it wrong in school :P . Over 900,000 words to work with :-? … many of which mean the same thing … or close enough so that one man showed how white = black :o . Then there’s F_k, and if I remember correctly he’s brushing up on his English. Or was that F_S?
I guess we’ll know shortly!
No s**t! My German friend Felix & I always joke about Americans attitude about English & Non-English speakers. He tells a story about an American he met in a surfing camp. 1st of all you could hear the American all through the camp (Americans are very LOUD compared to Europeans, especially Germans–unless said Germans are drinking :wink: ) 2nd was his classically American POV:
“…HEY! HEY YOU! YEAH, YOU! Do you speak English? DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH? …No? OK… DO YOU WANT TO BUY THIS SURFBOARD? I AM SELLING A SURF-BOARD–DO YOU WANT TO BUY IT?!?”
…thus we used to play around in Portugal:
“HEY! HEY, YOU! YEAH, YOU! Do you speak English? No? OK…I NEED TO GET SOME SCRILLA FROM THE ‘YAY-TEE-EMM’–DO YOU KNOW WHERE THE ‘YAY-TEE-EMM’ IS???–YOU KNOW, I NEED THA SCRILLA; THA CHEDDA; THA GREEN…”
English can be a P-I-T-A$$ indeed! :D
God bless America!
And it’s F_alk, BTW… :)
Ozone27
Delete*
@Xi:
Then there’s F_k, and if I remember correctly he’s brushing up on his English.
I always try to improve my English. Someone has to :D ;). And as a german i am destined to strive for meeting high standards cough cough :)
Xi’s correct, sorry about the obtuse wording!
Hm… sorry for correcting the correct then.
Another reason to brush up my English even more ;).
@Anonymous:
And it’s F_alk, BTW… :)
Ozone27
What’s this?
O_27 and F_k, are you having a MPD
(Multiple Personality Disorder) episode? :P
No! F_alk is F_alk & I is…oh nevermind!
Ozone27
Eew-kay!
:oops:
Sorry!
I mean “Okay!”
Nobody sees the 6 foot white rabbit drinking the Chevas Regal.
