And, even more important: Which leader showed this kind of “sh*t happens” response? Not Indonesia, not Egypt, not Saudi-Arabia, not Pakistan… who did ?
President Clinton.
“Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given, who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, who forbid not what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and follow not the true faith, until they pay the tribute of hand, and are humbled.” -(Sura 9:29)
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are friends to one another. Whoever of you befriends them is one of them. Allah does not guide the people who do evil.” -(Sura 5:51)
“There is to be no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has been clearly distinguished from error. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in Allah has taken hold of the firmest handle. It cannot split. allah is All-hearing and All-knowing.” -(Sura 2:256)
“And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.” -(Sura 4:160-61)
“The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside him.” -(Sura 9:30-31)
I’ll post some more quotes for you to analyze Yanny, but this one is kind of violent, wouldnt you say?
I’ll post some more quotes for you to analyze Yanny, but this one is kind of violent, wouldnt you say?
I think it’s very interesting… There is lots of violence and absurdities in Judaism and Christianism too, but people make interpretration to solve the problem when they want their religion to be as they like, even if some statement are very clear (note that they do not take “love all your neibourg” like it was a metaphor).
I’m not defending that Sura 9:29, i’m just observing that people seem to be far more objective when looking at other’s religion, it just make me think of that caricature of a french artist; a group of christians, with Jesus on the cross behind them, laughing at a pagan venerating a status.
sorry, when did Christ, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Titus, Timothy, Philemon or James tell Christians to kill other people? Does it say anywhere that we’re not supposed to do good things for others? About the most violent it gets is the part where we are not supposed to allow Christians who are actively sinning to be amoung us, but i don’t recall the part where they are to be put to the sword or anything . . . .
First CC, did Islam said to kill ? No (well maybe, but not as i know). I’m just saying that the quote EmuGod made could be interpret by anybody, just like each time i quote the bible you make some interpretation. Maybe Jesus did not said to kill, but you must forget “god” have killed lots of people, any fanatic can do the same and jusfitied his action with “god’s” action ! So Islam is violent ? Not more than christianism or judaism, it’s just in a dark time. I, personnaly, have less disrespect for Islam because it make science advance at least some time in history…
Maybe Jesus did not said to kill, but you must forget “god” have killed lots of people, any fanatic can do the same and jusfitied his action with “god’s” action !
Not neccessarily. That is merely a story in the bible, it’s not neccessarily the literary interpretation of God actually killing people. How can we possibly know that God flooded the world and killed everybody? We can’t. Just as you can’t believe the story of Adam and Eve in it’s literary sense.
It’s simply an “eye of the beholder” situation. Although, I do think EmuGod makes a strong point by providing us with actual quotations. It’s disturbing to think that any religion would actual encourage violence among the people of the world.
I think you can definetely make a stronger argument (by way of evidence) that Islam is a much more violent religion than the other big three.
I think you can definetely make a stronger argument (by way of evidence) that Islam is a much more violent religion than the other big three.
Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.
And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.
Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.
And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.
Here we go again.
Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people. Many of my ancestors were locked up and persecuted by the sword - for refusing to fight and kill.
You are straining at gnats to swallow camels FS.
And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject. Where are you going with this anyway?
Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people.
I did’nt ask for an interpretation, i’m just saying jesus words and “god”'s actions can be intepreted in various way by various people. I perfectly know (and i often said it) that the main Christian message was not violent, even if i think it’s pure fantasy…
And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject.
The is just related to the relation Islam-Violence. The quote EmuGod give us are not more violent than Christianism and that we should stop saying they are “violent”.
Where are you going with this anyway?
I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism.
I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism
Who here is saying otherwise? :-?
yeah, TG. I was wondering the same thing. I figure it may be a linguo-cultural thing for FS to argue against people who are supporting “his”/Yanny’s point . . . .
“Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given, who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, who forbid not what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and follow not the true faith, until they pay the tribute of hand, and are humbled.” -(Sura 9:29)
Notice: fight against those who do not possess the Scriptures
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are friends to one another. Whoever of you befriends them is one of them. Allah does not guide the people who do evil.” -(Sura 5:51)
Read as well Sura 22:17, Sura 6:83-92, Sura 7, Sura 5:48
Jews and Christians possess the Scripture, and Sura 5:51 does not say anything about fighting or violence. I don’t have to fight everyone who is not my friend!
“There is to be no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has been clearly distinguished from error. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in Allah has taken hold of the firmest handle. It cannot split. allah is All-hearing and All-knowing.” -(Sura 2:256)
Hmmm, either i don’t understand it, or there is no violence in here as well.
“And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.” -(Sura 4:160-61)
This sound awfully like ripped out of context… Plus: Christians and Jews are no unbelievers
“The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside him.” -(Sura 9:30-31)
See: Allah attack them!
This is pretty much like any judeo-christian violence in the sense of “god will do justice!”. And: Jews and Christians are compared to teh “unbelievers before them”: this i interprete that they are no unbelievers.
BTW:
Does the Quran has this nice mention of taking cities with gods help, then killing all males, looting and enslaving all women and children? That is violence, and it is in the OT….
I’ll post some mroe quotes later, but something very interesting in them is how Mohammed twists many things in the Quran, especially in regard to Judaism. In the quote above he claimed that the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God, something completely untrue. Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear. I dont think Islam is a horrible religion, I simply believe that sometimes the literal words in Quran can really be anatagonistic and have helped to create such organizations as Al Qaeda. That does not mean that Islam is a horrible religion. I think it means that it is easier for Islamic fundamentalists to gather followers because of the language in their holy book as opposed to some other religions.
It all depends on the translation really. I don’t speak any Arabic, but I know with Latin, you can tranlate one sentance as “Lazy Shopkeeper” or translate the same sentence into “Cowardly Bouncer”.
Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear.
I do not see what is so bad about 9:29…
after the defeat, the people of the scripute have to pay a tribute and can retain their faith. The tribute has to be paid by adults, with a clear mind, who can fight and are able to pay the tribute. Kids, women, men who can’t work and others who have no income don’t have to pay.
They are citizens second class, true, but have more freedoms than you probably would believe: alcohol and pork is allowed to them, they have their own laws concerning marriage and heritage… but exactly this has been admitted elsewhere on the board for some people living in Israel.
What about Sura 2:256, something like: “there are no obligations in religion”?
If an athiest were to bring up a Biblical reference which seemed to be commanding evil, Christians would provide a defense by explaining the passage of Scripture. So, if I, as a Christian, bring up even more Q’uaranic quotes than are already listed, should not the Muslim community provide an interpretation of the phrase, “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures are given, who believe not in Allah…”
I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.
@city:
I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.
Then get a muslim in here… i bet he/she can explain.
Well, Christian terrorists killed many more than Muslim terrorists. Millions died during the witch hunts. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died during the Crusades to Christians, who showed almost no mercy. On the other hand, barely a single Christian innocent was killed by a Muslim. The violence we’re seeing is relatively tame (700 Israelis dead, 3000 Americans).
Does that make it any less important of an issue for the Muslims to address?
No, however what I am saying is the violence problem has nothing to do with the Muslim religion. Every single Religion in the world causes violence. The problem lies with the nature of established religion.
