I’m glad at least cystic is finally aboard. I watched the whole thing on cspan - and please don’t comment if you haven’t heard it or just read the “jist” of it. that would be a complete injustice.
firstly I think he is still a great speaker, and probably the administrations biggest asset (and likely the first black president).
secondly I think he made all the points that I thought he would
1- the “allowed” aluminum tubes that everyone was claiming were for rockets were actually intended to part of a magnetic centrifuge for inriching uranium. I didn’t know that, but he was so thorough that I could darn near built a bomb now.
2- the “never been proven connection to al queada”. he not only named Iraq’s current al queada contact IN bagdad, (ZARQAWI) and his european cell network. he explicitly described that pre 9-11, top al queada operatives recieved training in IRAQ, on forgery and chemical weapons developement techniques. specifically ssighting ATIFF on three seperate occassions as going into Iraq to recieve this training between 97-2000. he also said that after the US embassy bombings in africa, saddam and osamas reps. signed formal agreements which removed Iraq from osamas target list. and allowed him to start channeling money into al queada.
3- he gave clear audio and visual evidence that not only was Iraq still manufactering chemical weapons, but he was hiding them as well.
and this infers that the inspectors mission is still being compromised (france) and will never be successful. I think that you cannot argue with him, unless of course you didn’t actually listen. you believe the lessons your teachers teach at school, and they don’t give you nearly as much information as powel did. why is that?
Two more things must be done before I will support a war.
A clear plan for Iraqi democracy. Not a puppet Government which we know Dubbleya wants so badly.
The control of all oil supplies to belong to the Iraqi people, and not a shred of it to the US Government. I want a written, binding, promise that the US will not touch Iraqi oil supplies.
Given that, I would support a war.
Consolidating this thread w/ the Iraq thread.
do you really think the world governments will allow the USA to control Iraq’s oil? if you want WW3 that’s a good way to start. that’s were russia gets their oil, not to mention the ukraine (who has most of russia’s nukes). that is not an accurate/legitimate concern.
your first point is a bit more difficult. firstly because I feel that the correct type of government for Iraq (or the world) is psuedo democratic. as either a republic or parlimentary system.
unfortunately this tends to take time to develope in oppressed countries. if we eliminate saddam and install a democracy, it will be quickly overthrown, and more than likely you’d get either a fundamentalist regime or civil war in it’s place.
it’s likely that the reason we are still dealing with the un at all is for this very reason. then we can leave UN peace keepers or even an arab coalition in charge. otherwise we have to stay there and insure that the people we initially choose, stay in power.- until the country is stable enough for free elections.
and by free elections falk “yes” I mean elections that will keep a western freindly regime, and not turn things back over to another dictatorship. so I guess they won’t actually be free, but neither are ours “here chose between satan of lucifer”.
Honestly Yanny, I doubt much will change with the oil infrastructure for years.
firstly I think he is still a great speaker, and probably the administrations biggest asset (and likely the first black president).
secondly I think he made all the points that I thought he would
I agree with the first, and disagree with the second
1- the “allowed” aluminum tubes that everyone was claiming were for rockets were actually intended to part of a magnetic centrifuge for inriching uranium. I didn’t know that, but he was so thorough that I could darn near built a bomb now.
How comes that the experts said differently (means: these tubes could not be used for that) after the first wave of “excitement” of finding these tubes was gone? Why do the opinions differ that much there?
2- the “never been proven connection to al queada”. he not only named Iraq’s current al queada contact IN bagdad, (ZARQAWI) and his european cell network…
Zarquawi is where? IN Bagdad? Isn’t he much rather in the Kurd controlled north? There is a branch of Al-Quada in Iraq, true. But it’s out of reach for Saddam Hussein, it’s in the north, fighting a bloody war of Kurds vs. Kurds.
And about the “signed agreement”…. is it proof enough to say it exists? Is saying that proving anything? Then the Iraq saying they don’t have WMD are proving the have none… Show me the agreement, that’s what proof is.
3- he gave clear audio and visual evidence that not only was Iraq still manufactering chemical weapons, but he was hiding them as well.
I answered that in the Iraq thread.
and this infers that the inspectors mission is still being compromised (france) and will never be successful. I think that you cannot argue with him, unless of course you didn’t actually listen. you believe the lessons your teachers teach at school, and they don’t give you nearly as much information as powel did. why is that?
Because they ask me to think about it, not only to believe it as “he” says so.
I accept the role that the US take: threatening the Iraq if he does not comply. But unfortunately, that’s not all: the US wants the war, not the disarming of SH. They still want him and the oil.
Seems like the son feels like he has to finsih what his father hasn’t done, and he took his dads comrades for that……
watched the whole thing on cspan
I have seen CNN yesterday…. they reported about the unemployment numbers in germany…
They had the wrong numbers, or all newspapers, tv-stations, news-agencies in germany are liars… And they were wrong by about 10%.
That’s about how much i trust a single source of information.
Whatever Colin Powell presented is from a single source of information: restriced, biased information.
I could as well believe someone else to tell the truth, maybe it’s the Iraqi TV that got it all right??
And the CIA really is not one of the agencies that i would call reliable and truthloving.
Anyway, i appreciate that finally the US has humbled itself to present some of their insights to those other nations.
I don’t know about anyone else, but these guys are starting to sound more and more unreasonable every day. The only people that Colin Powell didn’t convince yesterday are those people that won’t be convinced:
A.) They don’t want to believe that Saddam Hussein is guilty.
B.) They don’t want to believe the evidence.
C.) They don’t want to trust their own government.
(and most importantly)
D.) They don’t want to see President Bush be right. He already proved himself as a defining president when he liberated Afganhistan and destroyed the Al-Qaeda stronghold. IMO, liberals are scared to death that Bush might prove himself to be an excellent president yet again.
Deviant, the reason I was persuaded had nothing to do with his speech. It was the fact that Colin Powell gave the speech. Colin Powell is the only member of the Bush administration which I trust. He is probably the only reasonable high level advisor Bush has. If he comes out and says, with reason, that a war is inevitable, then I trust him.
However, I still do not trust Bush’s special interests. Bush raised more money than any President in history, by appealing to corporations. He has promises to keep, promises which are not in the interest of the Iraqi or American people.
We did a horrible job of establishing a Government in Afganistan. Sure, its better than the Taliban (isn’t everything?), but outside of Kabul, the country is in complete Anarchy. I don’t want to see that in Iraq. I want other countries besides the US and Lapdogisle involved in the process of establishing a Democracy in Iraq. Afganistan has still not staged elections, and isn’t planning any soon.
I like everyone in the administration, I think Bush did a superb job on picking his advisors and staff. I mean you have Rummy and Cheney the hardliners, Powell and Condy Rice the diplomats (with the “more reasonable” approaches) and more often then not Bush falls in between them. It’s perfect. And it is no accident that Powell was seen as more reasonable and leaning more towards the UN approach, then he delivers the last chance speech yesterday and it blows people away. “Hey, if Colin Powell says this stuff and is convinced Iraq won’t disarm, then it must be true…” Brilliant! This is a clear example of why you can’t surround yourself with yes-men. That speech never would have had the same impact if Cheney or Bush gave it, but since it was Powell, it just made it much more effective.
Powell does have a much broader appeal, beyond party lines, going for him and I think Condaleeza Rice is going to be a force in future politcs too if she so chooses. Maybe possible VP candidate in 2008.
WRT raising money, at least the Republicans raised their money from legitimate corporations, unlike the Democrats who ran straight to the communist Chinese for theirs…
…oh wait, communists are our friends. :wink:
Afganistan has still not staged elections, and isn’t planning any soon.
That’s becuase the warlords keep trying to assassinate anyone who thinks about running…
hat’s becuase the warlords keep trying to assassinate anyone who thinks about running
Same guys we supplied weapons to a year ago.
What loyal allies! We should give them M1 Abrams tanks too! Maybe some Apaches? F16s?
We should give them M1 Abrams tanks too! Maybe some Apaches? F16s?
Don’t worry, Yanny. That’ll happen, but it’s because the weapons industries sell the designs to “friendly” countries (i.e. UK, France, etc.). From there they branch out to the countries that haven’t been deemed “terrorist” or “communist.” It’s not up to the President, only the companies who are bent on making money.
I believe Colin Powell gave a great speech. Right now, I’m not talking about the evidence, just the speech in general. He was very straightfoward and did not wax eloquent and take up everyone’s time and attention (with the exception of France and Germany - they just straight didn’t want to be there - France was literally on the verge of twiddling his thumbs).
I also think the evidence was very compelling. Prior to this, I was hesitant to take a concrete stand about the war. I wasn’t getting enough info - just the same biased stuff over and over again. Why can’t the media give us the straight facts without any twists?
I think Bush did a superb job on picking his advisors and staff.
I totally agree DM. It’s unreasonable to expect a President to be perfect. The entire reason for choosing his Cabinet is to provide people who are strong in the areas where he is weak.
However, I still do not trust Bush’s special interests. Bush raised more money than any President in history, by appealing to corporations. He has promises to keep, promises which are not in the interest of the Iraqi or American people.
Sorry, Yanny, but when people keep using the same pithy, old, worn-out statements I get a little annoyed. Will you please give a less-used reason. I think the whole oil deal is a moot point anyway - or could be if we drilled in Alaska. I think there’s plenty there for us to stop being dependent on the oil from Iraq.
I don’t know about anyone else, but these guys are starting to sound more and more unreasonable every day. The only people that Colin Powell didn’t convince yesterday are those people that won’t be convinced:
A.) They don’t want to believe that Saddam Hussein is guilty.
B.) They don’t want to believe the evidence.
C.) They don’t want to trust their own government.(and most importantly)
D.) They don’t want to see President Bush be right. He already proved himself as a defining president when he liberated Afganhistan and destroyed the Al-Qaeda stronghold. IMO, liberals are scared to death that Bush might prove himself to be an excellent president yet again.
HEAR, HEAR!!!
Anyway, i appreciate that finally the US has humbled itself to present some of their insights to those other nations.
It’s better to confirm your evidence before you just jump the gun and wave it all around saying, “Here’s proof! Here’s proof!” - only to find out that it can’t be corroborated and (1) have to eat your own words, and (2) lose credibility.
- A clear plan for Iraqi democracy. Not a puppet Government which we know Dubbleya wants so badly.
Actually, we don’t know that. I think it’s just an excuse to keep on believing the worst about the President.
Finally, I truly believe that Saddam is using his “Bush is only trying to take over the oil so he can be a dictator” to cover his own sorry butt. It’s hard to convince me that if he didn’t have the stuff that he should still logically refuse to prove that it has been destroyed.
“…the torpedoes, full speed ahead!”
Colin Powell is the only member of the Bush administration which I trust… I trust him.
Why? He is a public liar.
He lied to his superiors during the Vietnam war (when he was a major) about a massacre of the people in a village by U.S soldiers.
He lied to COngress about the Iran-Contra Affair.
Makes me not want to look into the backgrounds of the few politicians I still respect…
or could be if we drilled in Alaska.
Alaska has nothing compared to Iraq. Iraq has the third most oil of any country in the world, Saudi Arabia and the US being first and second.
Sorry, Yanny, but when people keep using the same pithy, old, worn-out statements I get a little annoyed. Will you please give a less-used reason. I think the whole oil deal is a moot point anyway - or could be if we drilled in Alaska. I think there’s plenty there for us to stop being dependent on the oil from Iraq.
Ok, less used reason. President Bush has not done a single thing to enstill his trust to me. Neither has Clinton or Gore. He’s a politician, and rarely is there a politician I trust. Had I been alive (and not a toddler) I would of trusted Bush Sr., Reagan (though I don’t agree with him), Carter, and JFK. Hell, I am an avid supporter of Jesse Ventura and Pat Buchanon. Why? I don’t agree with a thing they say! I trust them. I trust Colin Powell, which is why I am coming close to supporting this war.
But Bush? I trust the weather man more than him. I see him as a brilliant actor, able to put on a friendly face at a moment’s notice. I see him as all talk and no game, unless guns are involved. I see him as a coward and a liar, as he has proven not only during his 2 years as President, but throughout his entire life.
Bush, he keeps a tighter control on his cabinet, the media, and first and foremost, himself, than any President in modern history.
Why should I trust him? He actively opposed campaign finance reform, led by another guy I trust, John Mccain. He is as partisan as Andrew Jackson was. He is a sleesy politician. He’s been one since he was first elected to his first office in Texas.
I truely think had Colin Powell not been there, we would of attacked Iraq in November. Colin Powell actually installed some rational thought into Bush’s brain. Had we gone into Iraq when Dubbleya wanted us to, the long term and short term consequences would of been much greater.
Nice. I respect that more than an overused expression more than I thought I would.
Quote:
or could be if we drilled in Alaska.Alaska has nothing compared to Iraq. Iraq has the third most oil of any country in the world, Saudi Arabia and the US being first and second.
It would still augment our own supply, still making us less dependent on Iraq.
I truely think had Colin Powell not been there, we would of attacked Iraq in November.
I can agree with that. And I think that’s why he chose Colin Powell for that position. I think he is weak in long-term planning, but he does know how to respond to the here and now. I believe that makes him good for this time period.
Colin Powell is the only member of the Bush administration which I trust… I trust him.
Why? He is a public liar.
He lied to his superiors during the Vietnam war (when he was a major) about a massacre of the people in a village by U.S soldiers.
He lied to COngress about the Iran-Contra Affair.
Makes me not want to look into the backgrounds of the few politicians I still respect…
Woa, liar, liar , liar!
Seems like oyu have more than one liar in your government then.
Mr. Rumsfeld held a speech, where he first “defined” what he though it supporting the U.S. … That included using and installing bases in these “cooperating countries”, as well as the allowance to use their airspace.
He then said there were three or four countries that do no such thing… naming Germany as one of them.
That is a blatant lie.
One of the first things Germany did after declaring it would not join in any military actions was to secure the US that they could use their bases in Germany and the airspace over Germany.
This was done even though many law experts say, that our constitution would not allow us so, unless the UN covered that military action.
Participating, starting or even supporting an “aggressive war” is forbidden by our constitution. That would mean: if the US go in without (1) cover from an UN-resolution or (2) an imminent threat of attack by the Iraq (which is the only justification for a pre-emptive strike) then we would have to be forced to close the airspace above Germany for US military, and discuss what to do with the bases the US has here.
But, we are close to breaching our constitution for you… which is not enough as it seems for a good vasall. The main reason for Germany to be so strongly against the military action is that we have a constitution that would bring us into severe trouble with our NATO obligations and treaties.
This is something that is not seen by the US as it seems. A good way to lose friends is to ignore their history and culture.
Colin Powell is the only member of the Bush administration which I trust… I trust him.
Why? He is a public liar.
He lied to his superiors during the Vietnam war (when he was a major) about a massacre of the people in a village by U.S soldiers.
He lied to COngress about the Iran-Contra Affair.
Makes me not want to look into the backgrounds of the few politicians I still respect…
Woa, liar, liar , liar!
Ahhh Iran-Contra affairs. This takes me back. Col North looked so dashing in his uniform, while being so Reagan-esque in everything he said.
Which reminds me, i need some Grecian formula 13, which I believe was also being supplied to the Iranian and Nicaraguan contra’s. . . .
He lied to his superiors during the Vietnam war (when he was a major) about a massacre of the people in a village by U.S soldiers.
He lied to COngress about the Iran-Contra Affair.
Did I say he was perfect? Lots of people lied, probably every single member of our Government. But I still trust Powell, probably because I too would of lied in his place in Vietnam, and I don’t know much about #2.
there is nothing wrong with a goverment official lying as long as he does it for a good cause ;)
