I think you can definetely make a stronger argument (by way of evidence) that Islam is a much more violent religion than the other big three.
Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.
And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.
Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.
And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.
Here we go again.
Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people. Many of my ancestors were locked up and persecuted by the sword - for refusing to fight and kill.
You are straining at gnats to swallow camels FS.
And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject. Where are you going with this anyway?
Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people.
I did’nt ask for an interpretation, i’m just saying jesus words and “god”'s actions can be intepreted in various way by various people. I perfectly know (and i often said it) that the main Christian message was not violent, even if i think it’s pure fantasy…
And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject.
The is just related to the relation Islam-Violence. The quote EmuGod give us are not more violent than Christianism and that we should stop saying they are “violent”.
Where are you going with this anyway?
I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism.
I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism
Who here is saying otherwise? :-?
yeah, TG. I was wondering the same thing. I figure it may be a linguo-cultural thing for FS to argue against people who are supporting “his”/Yanny’s point . . . .
“Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given, who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, who forbid not what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and follow not the true faith, until they pay the tribute of hand, and are humbled.” -(Sura 9:29)
Notice: fight against those who do not possess the Scriptures
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are friends to one another. Whoever of you befriends them is one of them. Allah does not guide the people who do evil.” -(Sura 5:51)
Read as well Sura 22:17, Sura 6:83-92, Sura 7, Sura 5:48
Jews and Christians possess the Scripture, and Sura 5:51 does not say anything about fighting or violence. I don’t have to fight everyone who is not my friend!
“There is to be no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has been clearly distinguished from error. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in Allah has taken hold of the firmest handle. It cannot split. allah is All-hearing and All-knowing.” -(Sura 2:256)
Hmmm, either i don’t understand it, or there is no violence in here as well.
“And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.” -(Sura 4:160-61)
This sound awfully like ripped out of context… Plus: Christians and Jews are no unbelievers
“The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside him.” -(Sura 9:30-31)
See: Allah attack them!
This is pretty much like any judeo-christian violence in the sense of “god will do justice!”. And: Jews and Christians are compared to teh “unbelievers before them”: this i interprete that they are no unbelievers.
BTW:
Does the Quran has this nice mention of taking cities with gods help, then killing all males, looting and enslaving all women and children? That is violence, and it is in the OT….
I’ll post some mroe quotes later, but something very interesting in them is how Mohammed twists many things in the Quran, especially in regard to Judaism. In the quote above he claimed that the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God, something completely untrue. Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear. I dont think Islam is a horrible religion, I simply believe that sometimes the literal words in Quran can really be anatagonistic and have helped to create such organizations as Al Qaeda. That does not mean that Islam is a horrible religion. I think it means that it is easier for Islamic fundamentalists to gather followers because of the language in their holy book as opposed to some other religions.
It all depends on the translation really. I don’t speak any Arabic, but I know with Latin, you can tranlate one sentance as “Lazy Shopkeeper” or translate the same sentence into “Cowardly Bouncer”.
Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear.
I do not see what is so bad about 9:29…
after the defeat, the people of the scripute have to pay a tribute and can retain their faith. The tribute has to be paid by adults, with a clear mind, who can fight and are able to pay the tribute. Kids, women, men who can’t work and others who have no income don’t have to pay.
They are citizens second class, true, but have more freedoms than you probably would believe: alcohol and pork is allowed to them, they have their own laws concerning marriage and heritage… but exactly this has been admitted elsewhere on the board for some people living in Israel.
What about Sura 2:256, something like: “there are no obligations in religion”?
If an athiest were to bring up a Biblical reference which seemed to be commanding evil, Christians would provide a defense by explaining the passage of Scripture. So, if I, as a Christian, bring up even more Q’uaranic quotes than are already listed, should not the Muslim community provide an interpretation of the phrase, “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures are given, who believe not in Allah…”
I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.
@city:
I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.
Then get a muslim in here… i bet he/she can explain.
Well, Christian terrorists killed many more than Muslim terrorists. Millions died during the witch hunts. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died during the Crusades to Christians, who showed almost no mercy. On the other hand, barely a single Christian innocent was killed by a Muslim. The violence we’re seeing is relatively tame (700 Israelis dead, 3000 Americans).
Does that make it any less important of an issue for the Muslims to address?
No, however what I am saying is the violence problem has nothing to do with the Muslim religion. Every single Religion in the world causes violence. The problem lies with the nature of established religion.
tell us something we don’t know… :-?
A few undeniable facts: feel free to investigate these claims…
The country that has the largest number of slaves is Sudan.
Over 98% of those slaves are BLACK CHRISTIANS who are fighting and losing to better armed Arab Muslims. Over 55% of those black Christian slaves are under the age of 18.
Chew on that for a bit…
Anyway, I hate to be rude, but I will be. If you honestly think that thousands of Christians don’t die annually in Muslim countries, your head is buried in the sand. The Muslim people in those countries may be nice people, but the dictators who lead them are not. Those foreign governments hunt down and seek out ALL other religions beside Islam. Two of my family friends, Shaun and Ahmal S--------, are Christian missionaries in a country I can’t mention. They have told us in letters that if they are discovered, they will be beheaded…
America doesn’t sound so evil now, does it…
Tell me how this is linked to the Muslim religion. The Christian Roman Empire’s population was almost 20% slaves. The United States endorsed slavery until 1860.
Sudan has no Government. Slavery is not law. There is no law. Unfortunately, the anarchy that has developed has caused some horrible things. Slavery, ethnic wars, religious wars, and just plain death.
I’ve been saying for months that we need to go into Sudan. But not as a military force. We need to go in and help the people who need help. Because there is no Government, there is also no real organized resistance, we won’t need to fight large scale battles, or kill large numbers of people with aerial bombing.
Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa. Somalia, Ethiopia, and Sudan are 3 reasons why terrorism exists. Dictators, Terrorists, and Drug Dealers all prosper in poverty. And this region has enough poverty to go around.
But thats the problem. When you mix extreme poverty with any moving force, in this case religion, people take their hate out on others. In this case it just happens to be Muslims killing Christians. However, any racial, ethnic, or economic group can experience the same thing. We saw during the French Revolution, during Hitler’s rise and fall and during countless other periods of history.
During the French Revolution, the third estate was entrenched in serfdome, lack of food, and an oppressive upper class. When they overthrew that upper class, they took out their hate on them. Thousands of upper classmen died, mostly to mob violence.
Nazism is the perfect example of what poverty can do. Hitler rose during the deepest trench of the Great Depression. The German people were 10x worse off than Americans were, as were most Europeans. Hitler took advantage of this, and was able to seize power. He was able to use the Jews as scapegoats, successfully controlling the hate of the German people.
Terrorism is created in the same way. When people are oppressed, poor, and starving, they eventually crack. When they crack, extremists, radicals, and people who you normally would not let in your house come to power. They are charismatic and intelligent enough to take advantage of a person’s emotions, and manipulate them.
We cannot combat terrorism with guns. We have to destroy it’s source, extreme poverty. Thats what I am trying to do here. If we blame the Islaamic religion, we are never going to solve this problem. We have to focus on the solution, or the bloodshed will continue. We have the power, and the responsiblity, as the #1 nation in the world, to help other nations survive and prosper.
This thread was ment by me to tie together my beliefs about why we should not be going to war with Iraq, and also why Israel is wrong in it’s actions.
Nazism is the perfect example of what poverty can do. Hitler rose during the deepest trench of the Great Depression. The German people were 10x worse off than Americans were, as were most Europeans. Hitler took advantage of this, and was able to seize power. He was able to use the Jews as scapegoats, successfully controlling the hate of the German people.
Not just poverty; humiliation.
Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa.
Wrong. These people need to help themselves.
@Deviant:Scripter:
Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa.
Wrong. These people need to help themselves.
You know, this is exactly the attitude that does not work in an ER. The number of times that you’d like to say “look - help yourself buddy. You got yourself into this mess now get yourself out” does no body any good. The guy/girl is going to leave, having been further devalued, and mess up again, but bigger. Maybe finishing the job on his wife, or herself, or just finding a snowbank to call it an end in. A few hours in a warm hospital bed, some fluids, a little TLC (maybe a stich, some valium to help with the shakes, etc) and this person will hopefully leave a little more “human” than when s/he arrived. Often that is just enough to help them get their lives turned around. Maybe it is a waste of time, but i believe that doing what is right is never a “waste of time”. It benefits at the least me as a person, even if the effects don’t last longer than 2 days for my patient - but at least that will be two days of non-hellish existance on earth.
But East Africa is not an ER you might say. Well, it is in a way. A massive ER on a massive scale with people who don’t know where to turn, where to get help, how to get out of their situation. The medical, educational, spiritual needs of these people have been undervalued by so many that they have lost sight of these values themselves. It’s amazing what someone can say or do to turn someone else’s life around. Applying a little value to these people’s lives in meaningful ways may do wonders to helping them see the values in their own lives - often lost or misplaced or trampled over by evil regimes. If we help these people - give them food, love, and a sense of their own value in the world, who know what potential they may have. Even if they have no potential and end up killing each other anyway, at least we’ll know that we’d have tried to do the right thing.
