Indian Fleet Alternatives

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Didn’t we already establish BBs are a waste of time?  We had this discussion about India buying BBs, and that got blown out of the water…so why would the US do the same damn thing to get the same damn result?   BBs are the biggest waste of money P E R I O D. PERIOD.  Â

That was me NOT attacking East Indies, and of course UK got dead then. Now that East Indies is dead, UK doesn’t need BBs on India and U.S. Forces on Szechwan survive also, that’s a big difference.

U.S. has 11 more IPC to build for than UK, but it can put 2 units on Alaska, so be my guest, choose which other units you want on Alaska, but the point is, Alaska IC is the quickest way to terrorize Japan directly, same goes for Manchuria which is only 2 spaces from Alaska and Russia is only 1 space from Alaska, which means Japan will NEVER take any Russian territory EVER, not with this build up. If you don’t like 2 BB, then build 2 Subs and rest on Bombers or 3 Bombers and 1 Sub, I am flexible. Point is, Japan is toast if U.S. goes all in on Alaska. Pressure on India will not even exist.

[Mallery29]

Read my lips: “You don’t need to go after India”.  Stalemate is all you need while you can send units up the middle (hence the HB Slam reference).  Meanwhile, Russian falls, and the UK becomes the next target of the Germans.  And Japan is still at 30 IPCs a turn.  The economics have to be turned to take advantage.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Read my lips: “You don’t need to go after India”.  Stalemate is all you need while you can send units up the middle (hence the HB Slam reference).  Meanwhile, Russian falls, and the UK becomes the next target of the Germans.  And Japan is still at 30 IPCs a turn.  The economics have to be turned to take advantage.

But there is no stalemate for Japan when they have to use all 4 FTR and bomber towards Japan because of the U.S. build up, therefore FIC is not stalemate, they are toast, you know that UK can have 10 units on India if UK wants to already after UK1 turn and before J1 starts it’s turn. So that’s a lot. Read also my reply in the other thread, alternatives UK can do to take Japans money easely on UK1 turn. So I can’t see how Russia falls, FIC is going to fall big time.

[Mallery29]

You must have gotten a different version of the game, because last I checked, FIC isn’t important (unless your rules state its a VC).  And you fail to understand the definition of a stalemate.  No side has the advantage, no side attacks.  The aggressor usually fails and gets pushed back.  I don’t need to read other threads to read about Russia’s 5% chance of survival.  Russia falls regardless…otherwise your German player frak’d up big time.  The question is, are you in position to prevent Germany from being able to conquer UK?  If Russia can hold out 5-6 turns, then the answer favors the Allies.

Japan’s defense perimeter of India should be at Yunan, not FIC (because of the transports/fleet position). (in a stalemate strat to give Germany time).

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

You must have gotten a different version of the game, because last I checked, FIC isn’t important (unless your rules state its a VC).  And you fail to understand the definition of a stalemate.  No side has the advantage, no side attacks.  The aggressor usually fails and gets pushed back.  I don’t need to read other threads to read about Russia’s 5% chance of survival.  Russia falls regardless…otherwise your German player frak’d up big time.  The question is, are you in position to prevent Germany from being able to conquer UK?  If Russia can hold out 5-6 turns, then the answer favors the Allies.Â

Japan’s defense perimeter of India should be at Yunan, not FIC (because of the transports/fleet position). (in a stalemate strat to give Germany time).

When did IPCs got irrelevant? So it’s irrelevant if UK takes Borneo and New Guinea on UK1 ? It’s irrelevant when UK takes FIC and Malaya which are another 3 IPC. Is it also irrelevant when USA visits Manchuria for another 3 IPC?

I play total victory, not V-City stuff. Well if Yunnan is the defense perimeter, you just gave away what I mentioned above or else you will have to move your fleet further south, and you can’t do that because of the U.S build up on Alaska. And then there is an option for UK to build another IC on FIC or EI since Japanese fleet will not be able to move away from Japan, they can’t even stop USA visiting Manchuria because of the 2 sea zones around Japan.

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

yeah, but at the same time with the Axis I’d probably make a spoiling attack on Egypt on J2 to kill some of those units there and then hit it again on G3 before the Allies could reinforce it. I don’t know the math but after Egypt falls then Germany focus on Africa and Russia and on J2 starts stacking on airpower and subs.

ICs on Alaska are a waste. You can’t threaten Phillipines/Borneo/East Indies to reduce Japan’s income, otherwise both countries will be almost matched at income production after Japan takes China (-4 for US, +4 for Japan, total of +8 for Axis
–---------------------------------------------------------------

You can do a “spoil” attack but only with 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Armor. And 2 Transport. Now do you intend to protect those 2 Japanese Transport, or do you accept that they will die when UK3 turn start? If you don’t accept them dead then you need to send additional ships to protect them, and what does that mean? Less ships around Japan while the U.S. is building on Alaska.  That is perfect for the U.S.

The Japanese transports either are sent without an escort and most likely will die. Since the IC in Egypt should fall to Germany it’s a perfect trade.

In addition to this, you will remove 4 units from FIC, which means 4 less units to defend when India pays a visit there, and they will by UK3.

I don’t see a problem with losing FIC on UK3 - quite natural if Japan is swinging to stop the US on the Pacific.

Yes, you can threaten the Phillipines on US2, but for how long can you hold it before Japan destroys that U.S. Fleet? Not for long. The point with Alaska is to build a massive U.S. fleet which will constantly threaten Tokyo directly + supplies to Russian Far East territories can be easely shipped there. It’s a matter of priority, do you want the U.S. to fight in the Phillipines or help Russia and India actually by drawing the whole Japanese fleet outside Tokyo.

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.
On J3… Japan can hit SZ63 and destroy the US fleet, depending on the J1 buys. US has 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and 2 fighters. Japan has 1 battleship, 2 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, 4 submarines, 4 fighters and 1 bomber. Add 2 Japanses destroyers to those numbers (from my J1 buy) and choose first the carriers as casualties and Japan has 86%.
On US3… completely impossible to land on Buryatia without being destroyed - US has 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and 2 fighters. Japan has 1 battleship, 2 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, 9 submarines, 4 fighters and 1 bomber… 97% odds when attacking the US fleet at SZ63 on J4.
This continues… since Japan and the US are almost matched in income and naval production (due to Japan retaining the money islands) it’s impossible to advance with the US to Asia soon, unless you want to lose your 4 US battleships. Japan stalls the US advance on the Pacific/Asia and that Alaskan IC can’t be used for anything else.

[Mallery29]

Axis, I play total VC as well…  Losing irrelevant IPCs when important IPC can be gained is ok by me…here’s why in a stalemate strat, Yunan is the place to go.  Any advance by Indian forces can be met in Yunan.  They can hit FIC, Burma, and India all from Yunan.  So if you start spreading your forces out, you risk 3-5 transports hitting India (depending on buys, moments of opportunities).  The moment the Indians try to take FIC, you put yourself into a precarious position of having to defend 3 territories while only producing 3 units a turn, while Japan can hit you in either spot, outproduce you, and start reducing your defensive capabilities without a full assault.  This is like when Russia tries to landgrab too much.  If they only landgrab what they need, vice what they can, they are more stable in the long run.  Spreading out your Indian forces can result in the same catastrophe. 
I’m glad Hobbes did the math…I’m tired of arguing failed allied Naval strategies.
I agree with Hobbes that sacrificing a Japanese transport or two can be wonderful thing for the Axis to take Egypt, although, I’d probably just send a DD because with them and reroute the rest of the fleet back north.  Missing one DD in this Alaska Crush won’t completely shift the numbers in the Allies favor, and gives the UK a potential for losing valued units.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

Axis, I play total VC as well…  Losing irrelevant IPCs when important IPC can be gained is ok by me…here’s why in a stalemate strat, Yunan is the place to go.  Any advance by Indian forces can be met in Yunan.  They can hit FIC, Burma, and India all from Yunan.  So if you start spreading your forces out, you risk 3-5 transports hitting India (depending on buys, moments of opportunities).  The moment the Indians try to take FIC, you put yourself into a precarious position of having to defend 3 territories while only producing 3 units a turn, while Japan can hit you in either spot, outproduce you, and start reducing your defensive capabilities without a full assault.  This is like when Russia tries to landgrab too much.  If they only landgrab what they need, vice what they can, they are more stable in the long run.  Spreading out your Indian forces can result in the same catastrophe.

I noticed this also - it can be very tricky for Indian forces to advance on Asia and still defend India with that amount of Japanese transports active.

I’m glad Hobbes did the math…I’m tired of arguing failed allied Naval strategies.

A player who never faced it can easily make mistakes and have serious problems… and sometimes you really need to see it fail to believe that it will not work.

I agree with Hobbes that sacrificing a Japanese transport or two can be wonderful thing for the Axis to take Egypt, although, I’d probably just send a DD because with them and reroute the rest of the fleet back north.  Missing one DD in this Alaska Crush won’t completely shift the numbers in the Allies favor, and gives the UK a potential for losing valued units.

Yeah, although I’d rather lose the transports than to kill an UK fighter and lose the Japanese fleet on a failed attack because that destroyer wasn’t present. Some battles I just don’t like to take ANY chance ;)

[AxisBrutality]

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.

–----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply. Ok, so lets say no IC on Alaska. I move all of the U.S. Forces to Iwo Jiwa which is SZ59. What do you do then, I would like to know, still buy 3 sub and 1 carrier on J2 ?

I would buy on US1 - 3 bombers and 1 sub = 42 IPC. Put them all on Western U.S. Cruiser from Panama to Western U.S. also. 1 FTR is on Alaska which came from Eastern U.S. 1 more FTR from Szechwan to Soviet Far East. Now I can on US2 attack all you got on SZ60, whatever that is, you will have to move EVERYTHING you got to SZ60 or else I can attack Japan.

I would have 1 Carrier, 1 Transport with 2 INF, 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 5 FTR and 4 Bombers to attack you with on US2. Be my guest and do tell what you build and move on J2. �
The principle of my strategy can clearly be done anyway with no Alaska IC, the point is to scare Japans forces to defend Japan, so that India is safe and I can start having fun in FIC/Malaya and East Indies with the UK, where 7 IPC are.

And don’t worry, I will make sure that Mother Russia has 5 INF on Soviet Far East to protect 3 U.S. FTR there (1 from Szechwan, 1 from Carrier on Hawaii and 1 from Hawaii itself) FTR from Westen U.S. lands on a Carrier which is now positioned on Iwo Jima. U.S. Bomber from Eastern U.S. goes also to Soviet Far East. That’s a really nice base right there, 5 Russian INF with 3 U.S. FTR and 1 Bomber :) I would also land Russian FTR after the attack on Ukraine, land it on Kazakhstan, in order to be able to attack any Japanese troops on R2 with 5 INF + 1 FTR.

Also the positionng of my U.S. FTRs is optional, I can also land 2 of them on the Carrier on Iwo Jiwa, 3rd FTR on Yakut from Szechwan and 2 more on Alaska, so am I able to attack you on SZ62 as well.

Now, before I do all this, I could buy 2 Bombers, 1 Tank on India with the UK, on UK1. Save 1 IPC in cash. Another Bomber from London goes to Evenki. Now UK has 3 Bombers which can strike your fleet on UK2 before USA starts having fun on US2. Do also tell what you buy on J1, and where do you put it?

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.

–----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply. Ok, so lets say no IC on Alaska. I move all of the U.S. Forces to Iwo Jiwa which is SZ59. What do you do then, I would like to know, still buy 3 sub and 1 carrier on J2 ?

I would buy on US1 - 3 bombers and 1 sub = 42 IPC. Put them all on Western U.S. Cruiser from Panama to Western U.S. also. 1 FTR is on Alaska which came from Eastern U.S. 1 more FTR from Szechwan to Soviet Far East. Now I can on US2 attack all you got on SZ60, whatever that is, you will have to move EVERYTHING you got to SZ60 or else I can attack Japan.

OK, the US can only land on Japan with 2 infantry and 2 fighters (+ possibly 1 bomber and the bombardment shots) so that isn’t really a threat if Japan builds say, 4 inf and 2 fighters on J2. Plus an attempt to land on Japan would most likely result on the US fleet being attacked and destroyed on the next Japanese turn.

I would have 1 Carrier, 1 Transport with 2 INF, 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 5 FTR and 4 Bombers to attack you with on US2. Be my guest and do tell what you build and move on J2. �
The principle of my strategy can clearly be done anyway with no Alaska IC, the point is to scare Japans forces to defend Japan, so that India is safe and I can start having fun in FIC/Malaya and East Indies with the UK, where 7 IPC are.

On J2 Japan can simply build infantry and fighters on Japan and send the fleet to land on FIC/Burma, stalling the UK advance and preventing any transports from being built on India.
Unless the initial transports survive (and they should be primary targets for Japan on J1) you need to buy ships to defend transports built on India, otherwise 1 bomber in Japan (or 1 carrier on SZ60) can sink them.

And don’t worry, I will make sure that Mother Russia has 5 INF on Soviet Far East to protect 3 U.S. FTR there (1 from Szechwan, 1 from Carrier on Hawaii and 1 from Hawaii itself) FTR from Westen U.S. lands on a Carrier which is now positioned on Iwo Jima. U.S. Bomber from Eastern U.S. goes also to Soviet Far East. That’s a really nice base right there, 5 Russian INF with 3 U.S. FTR and 1 Bomber :) I would also land Russian FTR after the attack on Ukraine, land it on Kazakhstan, in order to be able to attack any Japanese troops on R2 with 5 INF + 1 FTR.

Also the positionng of my U.S. FTRs is optional, I can also land 2 of them on the Carrier on Iwo Jiwa, 3rd FTR on Yakut from Szechwan and 2 more on Alaska, so am I able to attack you on SZ62 as well.

Now, before I do all this, I could buy 2 Bombers, 1 Tank on India with the UK, on UK1. Save 1 IPC in cash. Another Bomber from London goes to Evenki. Now UK has 3 Bombers which can strike your fleet on UK2 before USA starts having fun on US2. Do also tell what you buy on J1, and where do you put it?

You’re risking a bit on India…
J1: buy 2 bombers and 1 sub. Sink all remaining UK ships and land everything on Burma.
J2: attack India with 7 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 3 bombers, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship. UK defends with 1 AAGun, 5 inf, 2 arm, 4 ftrs and 3 bombers… 60% for Japan.

The overall odds would depend on the number of Allied fighters (and Russian armor) but even without Japan attacking India it has forced the Allies to defend it (at the expense of other areas, like Europe) and avoided being forced to defend SZ60 or to lose ships to the UK/US.
On J2 the fleet could then swing back to SZ60 to add more ships or to SZ61 to land more ground units on Asia. Or even send the transports to crack Egypt/Africa open for the Germans/Axis to take…
Japan’s fleet can be like an octopus at the beginning… you can try to squeeze it with the Allies but it can slip and slip and will only be caught if it wants to, makes a mistake or if there’s nothing else to hide.

[Mallery29]

Why are there five Russians on the Far East?  This is like placing troops in Madagascar to defend Africa.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

Why are there five Russians on the Far East?  This is like placing troops in Madagascar to defend Africa.

To allow for the US fighter from the carrier on land there on US1.

[AxisBrutality]

OK, the US can only land on Japan with 2 infantry and 2 fighters (+ possibly 1 bomber and the bombardment shots) so that isn’t really a threat if Japan builds say, 4 inf and 2 fighters on J2. Plus an attempt to land on Japan would most likely result on the US fleet being attacked and destroyed on the next Japanese turn.

On J2 Japan can simply build infantry and fighters on Japan and send the fleet to land on FIC/Burma, stalling the UK advance and preventing any transports from being built on India.
Unless the initial transports survive (and they should be primary targets for Japan on J1) you need to buy ships to defend transports built on India, otherwise 1 bomber in Japan (or 1 carrier on SZ60) can sink them.
You’re risking a bit on India…
J1: buy 2 bombers and 1 sub. Sink all remaining UK ships and land everything on Burma.
J2: attack India with 7 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 3 bombers, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship. UK defends with 1 AAGun, 5 inf, 2 arm, 4 ftrs and 3 bombers… 60% for Japan.

The overall odds would depend on the number of Allied fighters (and Russian armor) but even without Japan attacking India it has forced the Allies to defend it (at the expense of other areas, like Europe) and avoided being forced to defend SZ60 or to lose ships to the UK/US.
On J2 the fleet could then swing back to SZ60 to add more ships or to SZ61 to land more ground units on Asia. Or even send the transports to crack Egypt/Africa open for the Germans/Axis to take…
Japan’s fleet can be like an octopus at the beginning… you can try to squeeze it with the Allies but it can slip and slip and will only be caught if it wants to, makes a mistake or if there’s nothing else to hide.

Thanks for your reply again. Well yes, Japan could buy 2 Bombers, 1 Sub on J1. But the point is, Japanese player would never expect U.S. to buy 3 Bombers and 1 Sub and position all of it’s 5 FTRs to attack everything around Japan. Most Japanese players think that U.S. will go Solomon-Phillipines/Borneo way and not the Iwo-Jiwa-Manchuria or Kwantung way. Point is to draw Japanese fleet away from the FIC, and that can’t be do if U.S Fleet goes to Solomon.

So let’s be realistic, Japanese player will most likely never build 2 Bomber and 1 Sub on J1. So Japan has only J2 turn to do something about what I suggested to do with the U.S. on US1.

This strategy works a lot better of course as it is when you play in real terms, which is that you never tell your opponent what you will do with the U.S. So a Japanese player will most likely go for some kind of Transports, INF mixture on J1.

Yeah, it’s 60% for Japan if they attack India so it’s very risky, but I would have not 5 INF on India but 6 INF, (3 originally, 1 from Burma, 1 from Iran, 1 from Egypt + 1 Art). So 6 INF, 2 Tank, 1 Art, 4 FTR, 2 Bombers. I could also move Syrian INF to Iran on UK1 and further to India on UK2 which gives me 7 INF. And the U.S. “sacrifise” FTR from Szechwan to go to India, so that would be 5 FTR on India.
So you managed to draw away 1 U.S. FTR only but the rest of the attack can be done against the fleet, I don’t need to invade Japan, I can just send 2 U.S. INF to the Phillipines and the rest attacks Japanese fleet.

So as I said, Japan can only build something with a punch on J2, because a Japanese player can never know what USA will do on US1, so a Japanese player will most likely never build 2 Bombers and 1 Sub on J1 turn, units Japan is building will be soft targets for UK Bombers, such as Transports and Destroyers, so they will need additional support and Japan would expect U.S to go Solomon.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Why are there five Russians on the Far East?  This is like placing troops in Madagascar to defend Africa.

So I can land 3 FTR there and the Bomber. I can’t put 5 INF on Buryatia, they can be attacked more easely there but on Soviet Far East, they are way more safe when Japan starts J1 and J2. It’s not like Japan can blitz through Buryatia to Yakut anyway, Japan has only INF on Manchuria.

[Mallery29]

Oh, please do this, I beg you…so that way I can wipe them out and forever cripple the allies…this is a bad move on the US part…

2 Transports off Yunan. 2 Transports off Japan.  That’s 8 land units, and possibly 2FTRs and a Bomber.  Add in a CA and BB, and you now have 87% favor of Japan on this…Oh please make the Emperor happy…Dead Russians and dead Gringos?  I love it. I encourage it. Â

“…like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target.” Â

Please go to the Soviet Far East and die… “to the conquerors of the Federation!”

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Oh, please do this, I beg you…so that way I can wipe them out and forever cripple the allies…this is a bad move on the US part…

2 Transports off Yunan. 2 Transports off Japan. � That’s 8 land units, and possibly 2FTRs and a Bomber. � Add in a CA and BB, and you now have 87% favor of Japan on this…Oh please make the Emperor happy…Dead Russians and dead Gringos? � I love it. I encourage it. �Â

“…like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target.” �Â

LOL, you clearly couldn’t comment on anything else? Because you know I am right. I can position FTRs other way also, how many times do I have to tell you that 2 FTRs can be on a Carrier outside Iwo Jiwa. 3rd US FTR from Szechwan can be on Yakut, and another 2 US FTR can be on Alaska with 2 INF + 1 UK Tank.  Happy now? :) You still die because a Japanese player will always assume that U.S. goes Solomon, thus Japan will build transports on J1.

You can build 2 Trans, do that, what are they going to do, you need to protect them. Remember, 3 UK Bombers starts FIRST before your socalled “attack” on J2.

It’s also fun that you encourage it and think it’s positive that Japan will have to draw 8 land units towards Far East, you do that, while I build another 3 UK Bombers on India on UK2. So I am wondering if UK should say hello somewhere with 3 Bombers on UK2 or with 6 Bombers on UK3. Just draw away Japanese units towards Far East.  It’s so perfect, after US attacks on US2 with all they got, 6 UK Bombers will also say “hi” on UK3. We’ll see what’s left of the Japanese fleet then after J2, lol.

[Mallery29]

I love how incompetent your math skills are….3 bombers x 12 IPCs is 36…time to go back to 3rd grade!

Please remind me how 3 bombers (how you get 3 on UK1 at India baffles me), attack a BB, CV, 2DD, 2FTR, or a CA and CV w/2FTR…let me know how that turns out…

I know you are so wrong.  I’d rather take advice from my 6 year old.  Keep up the great strats!

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

I love how incompetent your math skills are….3 bombers x 12 IPCs is 36…time to go back to 3rd grade!

Please remind me how 3 bombers (how you get 3 on UK1 at India baffles me), attack a BB, CV, 2DD, 2FTR, or a CA and CV w/2FTR…let me know how that turns out…

I know you are so wrong.  I’d rather take advice from my 6 year old.  Keep up the great strats!

No problem, pal, I will remind you, ask and you shall recieve, lol!

How I have 3 Bombers ready on UK2? Easy.
You do know that UK has a bomber on London ? That bomber flies to Evenki or Novosibirsk.

UK = 31 to spend. I buy 2 Bombers on India and 1 INF, save 4 IPC. UK will take New Guinea, that’s 1 IPC.
UK collects 31 + 1 for N-Guinea = 32 + 4 saved = 36

That’s another 3 Bombers on India to build on UK2. Have fun dying with your little Emperor Transports :)

MATH POWER RULES pal, learn it.

[Mallery29]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Russia falls, UK is conquered, and the world smells like sauerkraut….good job!

6 Bombers vs. 2 DD, 1BB, 2CV, 4FTRs, 1CA…good luck with that .4% chance…you have! My math checks with the computer!

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Russia falls, UK is conquered, and the world smells like sauerkraut….good job!

Lol, where is the “math” now? Guess you are quiet on that one. Russia falls? Really, you didn’t like any of suggestions for UK to field ships on first 2 rounds, so I might as well go Air Power and send Emperor-boys down to the bottom of the Pacific in combination with brutal Air and Naval Power, after J2, no more fleet for the Emperor, lol.