What Do Do With French Units (F1) That Survive German Attack

[robbie358]

I don’t know about you guys, but I like to just take out the UK destroyers so my subs can convoy disrupt without worry. Also, you seem, KillO, to be under the impression that the UK navy won’t be touched at all, which is incorrect, as Germany really doesnt have anything else to do G2.

@guy:

in this scenario, germany should have plenty left over after france, if not they got diced, but it shouldn’t happen too often

Guy, obviously not, if I can save all the tanks and mechs. Anything else I can save is just a bonus, like artillery, to help defend France eventually.

You’re all so stuck in your ways. Anything that doesn’t go perfect for you is all the dice and not bad strategy. Then you cry and complain and do it all over again.

[robbie358]

And back to the original subject, I guess the question is how often does Paris get liberated?  I’ve never once seen the French get that 12 bucks to spend on units.  So I may as well have done it.
They don’t start with an AA gun in Paris in Alpha2.
I’m thinking I should have hit Paris to liberate it, and spent my 12 bucks on 1 AA gun, one infantry, and one mech to spend it all.  That gives me 2 infantry, one tank, and one AA gun, so if I shoot down even one plane then it was all worth it.  I land the French fighter in Normandy, so if he wants to kill it, he has to send at least a tank or a few planes, and I’ll probably get a hit.

Then Germany flips out like that guy on youtube that went ape.  After I explain to him that it all could have been avoided by a better G1 strategy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFrZXYi3lgI

[Mallery29]

Then Germany flips out like that guy on youtube that went ape.  After I explain to him that it all could have been avoided by a better G1 strategy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFrZXYi3lgI

not funny…had to prevent a guy from doing that once in a 42 game before…needless to say we never played with him ever again…not cool dude…not cool.

[KillOFzee]

@guy:

so what would you hit then KillO?

110, 111, and 106/9?

i mean you can’t hit EVERYTHING, right?

I hit 110, 111, and 106.

sz 110: 2 fight, 2 tac, 2 strat, 2 subs (100% victory if no scramble, 80% with scramble)
sz 111: 2 fight, 2 tac, 2 subs (97-98% victory if no scramble, 81% with scramble)
sz 106: 1 sub (toss up)

And yes, I don’t use the battleship because I don’t want to leave it susceptible to counter attack.

[Yavid]

@robbie358:

Then Germany flips out like that guy on youtube that went ape.  After I explain to him that it all could have been avoided by a better G1 strategy.

I stopped explaining to other people there mistakes along time ago for that very reason. Rarely I will offer advice in a face to face game (post game advice) and I even once offered an indepth teaching of the game but he was a friend for 7 years at the time. but as far as something like well you wouldn’t be fighting these fights if  you planned things out better. Never. My dad did that to me as a kid playing risk sucked the fun right out of it.

[guy]

@robbie

feel like i need to clarify some things…

my point was that if germany concentrates its entire land force on france (hell, even in alpha2) then the situation you presented in the pic wouldn’t happen, barring better than average dice for the allies.  if germany hadn’t split resources to try and hit normandy AND france AND some combination of UK ships, then you as the allies wouldn’t have even had the option to counter france.

its a fact then when you start splitting a few strong combined attacks into multiple splinter attacks, that your odds of each attack being successful goes down.

the remaining allied forces in normandy pose no lasting threat, so why risk a situation like this unfolding when you can just blow paris to bits and lose only some inf and art?

paris is an extremely crucial fight.  if the axis are already slipping up on G1 then things are only gonna get worse…

but i suppose maybe you COULD have tried a counter, didn’t look like he had much to sack paris with (except air), tho i didn’t look at the italian position

[guy]

this might be a lil off topic, but since german openings are vaguely relevant….

@robbie, if you opt to use your air primarily for the destruction of france AND you attempt to disable all UK destroyers in the atlantic:

1)how is the second part accomplished? (what do you send where?)
and
2)how could any self-respecting allied player allow you to hit the fleet on g2?

if it were me, even if i had to run all the way to canada, that’s what i’d do.  the brits start with a healthy amount of core ships.  you let them go and you won’t see them til an allied landing party plops down in europe.  either that or italy gets slapped around like rihanna.

i’m not opposed to the idea of freeing up those mechs/tanks for russia, but seems like the axis will miss a big opportunity to clear the atlantic a bit

[robbie358]

@guy:

1)how is the second part accomplished? (what do you send where?)

if it were me, even if i had to run all the way to canada, that’s what i’d do.  the brits start with a healthy amount of core ships.  you let them go and you won’t see them til an allied landing party plops down in europe.  either that or italy gets slapped around like rihanna.

i’m not opposed to the idea of freeing up those mechs/tanks for russia, but seems like the axis will miss a big opportunity to clear the atlantic a bit

Simple, they give you enough subs at the start of the game.  It’s basically designed so that you can hit them all.  Two subs on the Canadian destroyer/transport[106], two subs (and maybe a bomber) on the UK destroyer/transport[109], leaves you one sub, with 4 fighters and a strategic bomber for the Battleship/cruiser/destroyer[111].  You can send 5 tacticals into France, paired with the 6 tanks.

All destroyers gone, France falls in probably one turn.  You lose 5 or 6 infantry, keep all artillery, mechs, and tanks.  The UK fleet is inconsequential, as they can’t hurt your subs.  They’re down to two cruisers and a battleship.  Then your 3 bombers (build one G1) hit the UK with an SBR, along with the convoy disrupts, and 2 tacs, one each hitting the naval and air bases, neutralizes the UK for quite awile.

[robbie358]

I’m supposing he’d send his 4 planes against the 2 subs and bomber, leaving the rest of the attack alone.  My purpose being to kill his destroyer.  If one of my subs survive to kill the transport, it’s just a bonus, and if he wants to take the bomber hit on a plane, it wouldn’t be so bad.  I’ll take the bomber in order to keep the sub.

My build is 2 bombers and a sub, btw.  Just in case he’s an idiot and puts his remaining ships in 109 to try and defend them.
Also, how does the UK affect Italy if the Italians take Gibraltar?  He doesn’t have any transports left…

So there you go, my G1 moves.  Know you know my super-secret plan.  Commence the arguing!

[KillOFzee]

Robbie,

@robbie358:

All destroyers gone, France falls in probably one turn.  You lose 5 or 6 infantry, keep all artillery, mechs, and tanks.  The UK fleet is inconsequential, as they can’t hurt your subs.  They’re down to two cruisers and a battleship.  Then your 3 bombers (build one G1) hit the UK with an SBR, along with the convoy disrupts, and 2 tacs, one each hitting the naval and air bases, neutralizes the UK for quite awile.

I see you’re general idea but if UK comes out with 2 cruisers and a battleship, they are hardly “neutralized.” UK’s priority is to cripple Italy, and it can easily make it into the Med by UK2, especially if British put a block in sz 94, there’s now way Italy can  land a transport in Gibralter

Secondly, if you attack sz 110 with just 1 sub, 4 fighters and bomber, why wouldn’t the UK player scramble there? He would have a 78.3% chance of victory, meaning your entire fighter force is gone.

You’re whole idea seems like a mismanagement of resources. You would sacrifice 2 subs and a bomber to kill 1 DD and 1 TR, only to build MORE subs to cause convoy disruption, which all it takes is to neutralize that is 1 DD buy in sz 106 to kill of any subs in sz 109. You’re essentially doing UK’s job for you; draining precious resources away from the Eastern Front.

[robbie358]

111 is the sea zone I want, because it has a destroyer.  If I’m not mistaken, he can only sortie one plane into 111, the one from Scotland.
And how does he buy a destroyer in SZ106 if I have two subs there to kill it?  And why would he do that anyways, if he’s at all worried about sealion he’ll build infantry in the UK.

My problem is with the fact that people attack SZ110, but don’t listen to me.  Leave those UK destroyers alone, so they wipe out your subs, and don’t send any planes into France.  Good luck with that.

I’ll stick with my Germany plan, it’s worked every time.

[KillOFzee]

@robbie358:

111 is the sea zone I want, because it has a destroyer.  If I’m not mistaken, he can only sortie one plane into 111, the one from Scotland.
And how does he buy a destroyer in SZ106 if I have two subs there to kill it?  And why would he do that anyways, if he’s at all worried about sealion he’ll build infantry in the UK.

My problem is with the fact that people attack SZ110, but don’t listen to me.  Leave those UK destroyers alone, so they wipe out your subs, and don’t send any planes into France.  Good luck with that.

I’ll stick with my Germany plan, it’s worked every time.

You’re right, forgive me about that sea zone mix up.

I also don’t understand how attacking sz 110 is such a bad maneuver. I still take France with maybe a few hits on my artillery, but never with my tanks, and I only send 1 tac to France.

And when it comes to subs, you’re not using them correctly, so it really doesn’t matter that you’ve protected them for 1 round. If you have 2 subs in sz 106,all the UK player has to do is attack your subs with his cruiser and battleship and you’ve lost another 2 subs. So by the end of the 2nd round, you have lost all 5 subs and the UK player still has some important ships surviving. Now you are forced to build even more subs to gain any value from destroying the destroyers.

But at any rate, I have no doubt that you have had success with your plan, I just think that you have some significant flaws.

[robbie358]

You realize that submarines submerge, right?  He can’t kill my subs if he doesn’t have a destroyer.  Period.

[KillOFzee]

I understand, so the UK purchases a destroyer on the same turn that he moves his fleet in sz 106. Next turn he finishes you wherever you run, and his fleet is safe. So by round 3 you will have lost the second set of subs.

[WILD BILL]

robbie358, I agree that taking Paris w/min losses makes sense. In Alpha 3 we normally take all land into Pairis (no air because of AA), and ignore the 2 coastal French tt’s (they are easy picking It1/G2). You’ll generally end up keeping your tanks/mech or tanks/art (whichever you prefer).

Your sea battles look off to me too.

“Two subs on the Canadian destroyer/transport[106], two subs (and maybe a bomber) on the UK destroyer/transport[109], leaves you one sub, with 4 fighters and a strategic bomber for the Battleship/cruiser/destroyer[111]”

Sz 106 is cool, some times we go 1 on 1 just for kicks

Sz 109, you’re risking a bmr because they will scramble at least 3 ftrs knowing the most they can lose air wise is one ftr (to your bmr, but that’s only if one of your subs hit), and you have a good chance of losing the subs as well so convoy may not happen in sz 109.

Sz 111 also seems weak to me, I have trouble with that sz as it is, and I hate when that battle goes two rounds (at least toss a tac in there). If you buy bmrs G1, and no navy I might scramble Scotland too. If the Germans lose an abundance of air power, and have bought no navy G1 sea lion gets iffy, because if/when they go for it the German fleet is very vulnerable afterwords. Then you have the UK sz110 navy and Med fleet to deal with, the UK ground build up in Alpha+3, and Russia will be crawling up your crack if you go Sea Lion.

I get the whole knock the destroyers out, but it seems to me that in your quest you have reversed the situation you brought up earlier. Instead of splintering the land battles, you have splintered the sea battles (exposing your air). In any case you seem to be risking a lot of German air power at sea, and then to the French AA gun as well (not good to lose axis air early on). I’m not saying you can’t be successful, but I could also see a disaster as well. Plus the whole thing was to keep your ground for the march to Moscow. If your adversaries know you don’t like to Sea lion then that also works against you IMO.

[robbie358]

Wild Bill,  I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree.  The whole argument started because a guy half-massed the France attack with no planes in there on the usual bad advice of people on this board.  If that’s going to be the standard opening move, then I need to know what to do with my French units on F1.  Because I’ll have some left.  Beacuse you have a 51% chance of a win (or even 75%) doesn’t mean you will.  And if you do you’ll be weak there.

If I was playing Germany, and I took out his destroyers (lets assume I change the attack a bit, the bombers might be able not reach 109) with my subs and a few planes, that leaves me a fighter left for Southern Italy, no destroyers at all to attack my subs, no transports for him to take anything back, and all my mechs and tanks, which still get to Russia on G3 because I wiped out France with one shot from all my bombers.

I don’t understand what my problem is.  I can hit the UK navy on G2 and not hurt from it.  If he consolidates his navy and builds a destroyer (or anything else in the ocean for that matter) he’s an idiot, because I can wipe it all out THEN I CAN DO SEALION.  The UK must build infantry in England to counter that threat.

[KillOFzee]

Robbie,

1. The Brit will not let you hit his fleet G2.
2. You have to get 2 hits with the subs in order to kill the transport in sz 109 (1/9 chance)
3. If you do a standard attack on France (7 inf, 3 art, 4 mech, 6 tank, 1 tac), you have 100% chance of victory
4. The UK is not at threat from sea-lion if they build 1 destroyer and and then 6 infantry.

Again, you have a good concept, but you leave England too powerful by not attacking 110. You seem as if sz 110 is a bad maneuver, but it looks as if your over arching strategy is too weak to compensate for the lack of an attack on 110.

[RedHunter]

@robbie358:

KillO, I think you’re probably right.  I’m just clueless as to why people just HAVE to hit the UK navy turn 1 at the cost of sending those planes into France.  Then you wonder why you lose everything.
I’d rather the British survive (minus their destroyers) and keep all my mech and tanks for Russia, but that would just make too much sense.

And hurry up and post here before the topic gets sent to “House Rules”.

Its quite simple. UK fleet has to go away. Has to…otherwise you will have the UK on your doorstep early and often. Germany needs its forces to attack Russia. In the Alpha 3 build(and I believe in the Alpha 2 build) Germany has more then enough to both take France and take out the UK fleet. Unless they are screwed by bad rolling. If France lives past turn 1 you can call game right there. Germany needs the money from taking France.

I have never seen a failed France attack that Germany has recovered from.

[RedHunter]

You can leave Southern France for Italy if you are uncomfortable with splitting your ground forces up to much. They can take it easily. It slows them down in Africa if they need to take Southern France but that ground can be made up.

[Cow]

Just keep em there or attack something or put it someplace he has to attack. Just use your freebies.