I seriiously feel like I am talking to multiple brick walls - but I will calmly try one last time to lay this out…and sorry for causing anyone to go blind reading this…
In a FTF tournament, you cannot have games that go on for an undefined period of time. So, a time limit needs to be established (this, of course is NOT in the rule book, so that means it is willy nilly and is completely illegal).
Given that you must have a time limit and given that there are 18 VC in the game - you could, in fact, have a TIE at the end of the game time period. So - you must have a tie-breaker - which was decided to be total IPC count on the board. (this, of course is NOT in the rule book, so that means it is willy nilly and is completely illegal).
In the rules - since that is what everybody is barking about - it says “Assign a power or powers to each player” Hence the bid system - which allows for the game to determine sides and also has the bonus of acting as a (perceived or otherwise) balancing aspect of the game. We could assign sides by rolling dice, flipping a coin or by whoever was closest to guessing the mass of atomic element 47. The ‘rules’ do not stipulate HOW to assign teams. They must be willy nilly.
In the rules - since that is what everbody is barking about, it says “Research & Development. Note: This is an optional rule”. Our option - not to use it. Why? Given that tech in the past has proven to be overpowered in some cases AND the fact we wanted to make the game as accessible as possible - it was discussed and decided that Tech was out. It would have been willy nilly had we added the ‘super-bendy-thumbs’ tech, but we, at the last moment, decided against it.
In the rules - since that is what everbody is barking about, it says “National Objective & Bonus Income. Note: This is an optional rule”. Our option - not to use it. Why? This optional rule was added to inject more cash into the game and to give people additional ‘goals’ as they played that, over the course of a full game might give them some advantage. Since we have a limited amount of time in a FTF tournament game and since the NOs do not directly correlate to the victory conditions of the game and since we wanted to make the game as accessible as possible - it was discussed and decided that NO was out. There has, however, been a lot of discussion over the last year or two and feedback from people who actually PLAY in the FTF tournaments that NOs may be added. As much as some would like to believe - the rules used are not set in stone forever.
The tournament uses the ‘official’ LHTR updates. While not in the original rule book, I guess this makes them just willy (but not nilly)
I couldn’t find in the rules how to choose 1941 or 1942 set up, though I assume that it would usually be in agreement from the players. Since I have seen firsthand how well players ‘agree’ during tournaments, a decision had to be made for everyone - and that was the 1942 set-up. After play-testing both set-ups using the format we knew we had to use (timed games = finite rounds), the 1942 setup seemed a) more balanced and b) provided more variation in how the game might flow. While not talked about much by the players, if there were some logical arguments made, I am sure it would be a consideration to move to the 1941 setup - but I think most people who play DO like the 1942 better in the format we have.
Lastly, most ALL of the items above were also discussed with Larry - he helped to develop the format for the FTF tournaments for both Revised (1942) and AA50. Larry is a pretty good guy, so I am not sure I would label him willy NOR nilly.
So - there you have it - all of the MANY, MANY changes that were made to the game out of the box. We wanted to change the attack values of tanks and allow ships to move three sea zones a turn, but figured that might be a bit too much.
MM
I seriiously feel like I am talking to multiple brick walls - but I will calmly try one last time to lay this out…and sorry for causing anyone to go blind reading this…
In a FTF tournament, you cannot have games that go on for an undefined period of time. So, a time limit needs to be established (this, of course is NOT in the rule book, so that means it is willy nilly and is completely illegal).
Given that you must have a time limit and given that there are 18 VC in the game - you could, in fact, have a TIE at the end of the game time period. So - you must have a tie-breaker - which was decided to be total IPC count on the board. (this, of course is NOT in the rule book, so that means it is willy nilly and is completely illegal).
In the rules - since that is what everybody is barking about - it says “Assign a power or powers to each player” Hence the bid system - which allows for the game to determine sides and also has the bonus of acting as a (perceived or otherwise) balancing aspect of the game. We could assign sides by rolling dice, flipping a coin or by whoever was closest to guessing the mass of atomic element 47. The ‘rules’ do not stipulate HOW to assign teams. They must be willy nilly.
In the rules - since that is what everbody is barking about, it says “Research & Development. Note: This is an optional rule”. Our option - not to use it. Why? Given that tech in the past has proven to be overpowered in some cases AND the fact we wanted to make the game as accessible as possible - it was discussed and decided that Tech was out. It would have been willy nilly had we added the ‘super-bendy-thumbs’ tech, but we, at the last moment, decided against it.
In the rules - since that is what everbody is barking about, it says “National Objective & Bonus Income. Note: This is an optional rule”. Our option - not to use it. Why? This optional rule was added to inject more cash into the game and to give people additional ‘goals’ as they played that, over the course of a full game might give them some advantage. Since we have a limited amount of time in a FTF tournament game and since the NOs do not directly correlate to the victory conditions of the game and since we wanted to make the game as accessible as possible - it was discussed and decided that NO was out. There has, however, been a lot of discussion over the last year or two and feedback from people who actually PLAY in the FTF tournaments that NOs may be added. As much as some would like to believe - the rules used are not set in stone forever.
The tournament uses the ‘official’ LHTR updates. While not in the original rule book, I guess this makes them just willy (but not nilly)
I couldn’t find in the rules how to choose 1941 or 1942 set up, though I assume that it would usually be in agreement from the players. Since I have seen firsthand how well players ‘agree’ during tournaments, a decision had to be made for everyone - and that was the 1942 set-up. After play-testing both set-ups using the format we knew we had to use (timed games = finite rounds), the 1942 setup seemed a) more balanced and b) provided more variation in how the game might flow. While not talked about much by the players, if there were some logical arguments made, I am sure it would be a consideration to move to the 1941 setup - but I think most people who play DO like the 1942 better in the format we have.
Lastly, most ALL of the items above were also discussed with Larry - he helped to develop the format for the FTF tournaments for both Revised (1942) and AA50. Larry is a pretty good guy, so I am not sure I would label him willy NOR nilly.
So - there you have it - all of the MANY, MANY changes that were made to the game out of the box. We wanted to change the attack values of tanks and allow ships to move three sea zones a turn, but figured that might be a bit too much.
MM
1. True a must- though I personally have vouched for more time. No argument here though.
2. True again- must do this. I don’t agree with the Bonus System completely- just have a problem with LA being 0. This illiminates any West Coast threat and reduces the games arsenal of strategies. I’ve seen serious strategies formed where there is a threat to LA. Do you know of the z42 progression from Revised??? All bouns cities should be worth SOMETHING, thats why they are victory cities. I would tweek this a bit.
3. Bid system is fine. We do a version of it online here also. Playing in Greg’s tournys and online with it, I see no difference. I don’t see the complaint here.
4./5. Optional rules are optional rules. From play online, in AA50 the 41 WITH NatObj is popular, open-ended strategy game and very balanced. Proved over 100s of games. However, the 42 w/o NatObj. is also balanced from what I have experienced. Greg made the call to go with the latter b/c he did not want optional rules for simplicity- OK I understand that.
He also said that the 41 “turns into the 42 setup anyway”- which is NOT true. That is a very grossly false assessment. If that were true, then for example, Japan in the 41 would reach out into the Pacific and pick up all those islands that the 42 starts with- completely different strategy routes from what I have seen.
Regardless, b/c Greg has decided not to use optional rules which is his choice, that leave the 41 w/NOs out of the picture. That is his right to do that. Its a shame and I never agreed to it but it is his right to make that call- its his tourny, not ours.
6. LHTR- man you guys still got those- that’s old. I predict that AA50 will slowly fade away as there are fewer and fewer copies available and AA41, AA42 2nd ed and G40 will be the flagship games of the tourny. That being said, there are no NatObj in 41 and 42 so it won’t matter and in G40 Larry made the NatObj part of the regular rules (not optional- thank God!!!). So the complaints I had with the AA50 tourny, I don’t care about anymore b/c I believe that version will slowly fade away.
7. Most people at the tournaments or your playtesting group liked 42, but online, 41 w/NatObj was king. Again, irrelavant now that 42 2nd ed will probably take AA50s place.
8. Mike and Greg- have you considered my proposal for online qualifier and automatic bids??? BTW I have a new email so anything you sent after June 15th I didn’t receive. PM me and I’ll give you my new one if you want.
2. True again- must do this. I don’t agree with the Bonus System completely- just have a problem with LA being 0. This illiminates any West Coast threat and reduces the games arsenal of strategies. I’ve seen serious strategies formed where there is a threat to LA. Do you know of the z42 progression from Revised??? All bouns cities should be worth SOMETHING, thats why they are victory cities. I would tweek this a bit.
Again, this is where things get willy nilly. Why is LA worth 0? But Washington DC worth 20?
Why not have them both worth 10?
or 5 and 15 atleast?
The -tie breaker- determination system could give japan a failing grade, even if the are in control of WUS! LOL! Over and Over again I read “We’ve listened to the players”.
Sounds like no one’s been listening to Questioneer for YEARS, and no one’s listening now. The Brick wall’s being talked to, are on the OTHER side of the fence.
I am not certain about your thought that AA50 will fade away - perhaps.
However - I am not sure the 1941 game will draw big crowds - if it does that is great - but it will draw only beginners. I don’t think experienced players will be drawn to it. Then, of course, in theory after a beginner plays in a 1941 tournament or two, they might be inclined to move up in complexity. If, however, we keep new people coming in (and based on the sold out attendance at ALL of the A&A for beginner events this year and last, that might happen), the 1941 should at least generate enough people for a tournament.
For global - I truly believe that we will struggle to have a lot of teams for that - as much as people like the game, I am not sure how many want to devote their entire Con to one game - which is what the commitment is.
The new 1942 I expect to be a hit - I really hope it is - and I expect good tournament sizes for that. THe old 1942 drew next to nobody last year.
As for AA50 - it has been the most popular and most played tournament that last couple of years at GenCon and I expect that not to change anytime soon. It is possible that it will fade some though as people will have other choices to go with.
MM
Gargantua,
Let’s make sure we are clear that there are two different games you are talking about. All of the original criticism was leveled against AA50 - and all of my comments were related to THAT game.
If you want to discuss 1942 (or Revised as it was called) that is a very different issue. The bonus point system for that game came directly from Larry because we were having trouble coming up with suitable victory conditions for that game to use when the game time ended. I agree that having LA be worth no points was odd - to be honest, I mentioned that myself. While I do not know for sure what the logic was, I think it had to do with the fact that LA is rarely, if even, taken in the game (at least not in games that only last 4-6 rounds)
MM
Fair comments Mike.
I’ll stick to AA50 in this thread.
Actually not having played any of the above mentioned games, I would have to agree with Garg that AA50 is doomed to die, why you ask? as a new player I’m more interested in probably getting me the 1941 game then the AA50 game, why? because the AA50 game is expensive, and sorry but I don’t believe a game is worth hundreds of dollars or more, no matter how good the game is, in fact all my games I buy I set a certain price range I will pay, so don’t pick up a game till it is within my price range with S&H.
But not only that but the AA50 game does not appear to intrigue me, also you guys took out Tech? seriously Tech ?, tech is the great equalizer if people want to spend IPC’s on dice with a slight chance of getting something and no clue what you’ll get.
I am not certain about your thought that AA50 will fade away - perhaps.
However - I am not sure the 1941 game will draw big crowds - if it does that is great - but it will draw only beginners. I don’t think experienced players will be drawn to it. Then, of course, in theory after a beginner plays in a 1941 tournament or two, they might be inclined to move up in complexity. If, however, we keep new people coming in (and based on the sold out attendance at ALL of the A&A for beginner events this year and last, that might happen), the 1941 should at least generate enough people for a tournament.
For global - I truly believe that we will struggle to have a lot of teams for that - as much as people like the game, I am not sure how many want to devote their entire Con to one game - which is what the commitment is.
The new 1942 I expect to be a hit - I really hope it is - and I expect good tournament sizes for that. THe old 1942 drew next to nobody last year.
As for AA50 - it has been the most popular and most played tournament that last couple of years at GenCon and I expect that not to change anytime soon. It is possible that it will fade some though as people will have other choices to go with.
MM
Yeah I think you’re right. 42 should be a hit. From what I’ve seen the improvements are very nice. 41 will probably be popular for a couple of years- maybe more- who knows this may be a game for the longrun also- it does have potential. G40- yeah, I told Greg it may not be made for a tournament- it just too long for a Con. I did my best format for it, it works but if people don’t wanna play a 9-12 hr game then I can’t blame them.
Well have fun at Indy. If things work out, maybe I come next year- its been a while.
Well - hot-blooded debates aside - we would love to have you and anyone else from the online world there :)
We would love to attend. :P
But there is STILL the contentious issue of playing a decent version properly and with options… lol…
Do people have to sign up on the day of for the tournaments or is there a pre sign up thing?
I’ll be at GenCon Indy all four days this year. I’ll do my best to cover all the Axis & Allies action whilst playing the game.
Who else is going? Although I like to play solo, I’m thinking it might be a good idea to put together a team. If somehow I make it past the first round of AA50, the elimination round is the same day as the AA42 tournament.
If you plan on playing in the tournament, it is a good idea to have a partner. The games last 6 hrs, so you’d be sitting by yourself without anyone to get you food or a break, not to mention the strategy advice/help of two vs one. And certainly playing 2 (12 hrs) gets harder w/o a partner.
So I hope to see you there.
The rest of this thread is filled with troll bait.
2. True again- must do this.� � I don’t agree with the Bonus System completely- just have a problem with LA being 0.� � This illiminates any West Coast threat and reduces the games arsenal of strategies.� � I’ve seen serious strategies formed where there is a threat to LA.� � Do you know of the z42 progression from Revised???� � All bouns cities should be worth SOMETHING, thats why they are victory cities.� � I would tweek this a bit.
3. Bid system is fine.� � We do a version of it online here also.� � Playing in Greg’s tournys and online with it, I see no difference.� � I don’t see the complaint here.
4./5. Optional rules are optional rules.� � From play online, in AA50 the 41 WITH NatObj is popular, open-ended strategy game and very balanced.� � Proved over 100s of games.� � However, the 42 w/o NatObj. is also balanced from what I have experienced.� � Greg made the call to go with the latter b/c he did not want optional rules for simplicity- OK I understand that.� �
He also said that the 41 “turns into the 42 setup anyway”- which is NOT true.� � That is a very grossly false assessment.� � If that were true, then for example, Japan in the 41 would reach out into the Pacific and pick up all those islands that the 42 starts with- completely different strategy routes from what I have seen.
Regardless, b/c Greg has decided not to use optional rules which is his choice, that leave the 41 w/NOs out of the picture.� � That is his right to do that.� � Its a shame and I never agreed to it but it is his right to make that call- its his tourny, not ours.
6. LHTR- man you guys still got those- that’s old.� � I predict that AA50 will slowly fade away as there are fewer and fewer copies available and AA41, AA42 2nd ed and G40 will be the flagship games of the tourny.� � That being said, there are no NatObj in 41 and 42 so it won’t matter and in G40 Larry made the NatObj part of the regular rules (not optional- thank God!!!).� � So the complaints I had with the AA50 tourny, I don’t care about anymore b/c I believe that version will slowly fade away.
7. Most people at the tournaments or your playtesting group liked 42, but online, 41 w/NatObj was king.� � Again, irrelavant now that 42 2nd ed will probably take AA50s place.
8. Mike and Greg- have you considered my proposal for online qualifier and automatic bids???� � BTW I have a new email so anything you sent after June 15th I didn’t receive.� � PM me and I’ll give you my new one if you want.
� �
Larry was the one who made LA worth 0. I remember telling him that you should just have had hawaii worth VP instead of 20 for Washington and 0 for LA and that would have solved some issues, but no go.
As to AA50, Global will never overtake it for FTF tournaments as its is. Its just TOO LONG to play tournament wise, and few are willing to play 10-12 hr games. Now, if you took Global and made a workable 1942 setup, then that might be playable in 6 hrs.
I also dont see AA42 2nd ed being the “main” game. Why play that when you could play the much better AA50??
See this is exactly what I am talking about jim. Clyde Calling people idiots when the only idiot is probably the one that wrote that. Then to call Gar hardcore, do you even know what hardcore even means…?
And I don’t only have the interest of WotC here. I have only the interest of those that attend and want to play AA.
We are talking about just trying to establish an means by which ANYONE, “idiots” and all can come and play AA ftf in a great setting. If you are a “Hardcore” player, come have at it but don’t take your frustrations out on the ones that might be the ones that beat you in the end?
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe my posts were directed at you, and if i’m not mistaken, I was wan’t even quoting anything you said so either you’ve got the wrong posts or you’re projecting so hard you could point yourself at a wall and show off power point presentation.
Casual gamers tend to be a bit stupid when it comes to games like A&A and i’m sorry that I feel it’s wrong to dumb down a game just for them. I can appreciate your stance of “No drooling mongoloid left behind” towards these gamers but I just feel it takes away from the real fans of the game who want to play it the way it was designed.
I’m not sure how you’re quantifying being “hardcore” but I know well enough that myself, and guys like Gar, Axisaplaya, Vance, Surprise Attack, and Young Grasshopper just to name a few, are hardcore and don’t need the acknowledgement of certain other forum members to validate that. :-)
Greg,
We’ve already talked about this on email. Go back through our email conversation and you’ll see this was posted before that conversation and I’ve changed my thoughts on some of these things since then.
Face-to-face tournament play is a completely different beast than any other form of play, including friendly face-to-face and you’re the expert on tournaments.
People have a preference in what they like to play, I like AA50-41 with NOs, which is why I thought I might play something else instead, maybe minis or something. I’m still definitely playing 1942 and still probably AA50.
Is it too late to setup a 1941 tournament? We could probably finish that in half a day. :wink:
The guys who sit behind their computers to play also play face-to-face and have some good ideas but like everybody they/we also have ideas that won’t work. Finally, not everybody here plays online, only about 25% of active users.
David
Has anybody ever played in one of Smorey’s tournaments? The backwards bidding took me much longer to wrap my head around. I much prefer the “I will play Allies of you give me 10” and respone, “well I can play Allies for 9!”
Smorey’s is like “I will give you the Allies and 9” and response, “well I’ll give you Allies and 10.”
Next, the Anniversary tournaments seem to use rules that nobody actually plays with. Strategic bombing escorts? No National Objectives?
I may not be playing much AA50 at GenCon as I thought.
Dave,
I bet you didn’t think I would be here responding? Just curious though, this is the kind of things I was talking about regarding G40 rules and the like. Onliners continue to knock the system when they haven’t even tried it and used it in the setting by which it was created for. You and I have discussed this before at length.
On the bid front, we ( myself and a few guys from California) created a bid system that was simiple and easy and it has worked now for 19 years. It is kind of like an auction. You know your own game and know what it takes to win under those conditions, so you bid up until you think that is enough….and then your opponent counters with the same.
Bidding 10, 9, is counting backwards and is really “backwards bidding”…so, I am not sure how you can say that about the system we created. It is all in the positive direction. It was created online for online gamers. Again, my point that I have been making for along time now…
Next, the Anniversary tournaments seem to use rules that nobody actually plays with. Strategic bombing escorts? No National Objectives?
I may not be playing much AA50 at GenCon as I thought.
Not sure when you talk about “Nobody”. Again, speak for yourself and those people that have no concept of the game other than their own opinion. You know Larry and I have worked hard on trying to transition all the AA games from OB play, with the rules as is, and slightly modify them to have a great game played in a tournament format, FTF, within a time limit. This is not rocket science nor is it something we can just put in stone and go with it. We have to try out what we think is best for the game then continue to work it so that everyone enjoys the format by which they basically set.
As far as you not playing AA50. Why do you say that. You are defeating your purpose of going to GEN CON and the ability by which you have to voice your opinion on how the system works. Hey, when I met you several years ago in LA at GEN CON, there was no complaining then and knocking the system?
I really hope you get all your guys together and come and play. There will be a suggestion box for all those that do play and I am always open to new ideas that work for the best of FTF play.
Hey, everything I have even done at Origins, GEN CON and the Spring Gathering is based on what the players that show up and play want. Not what the guys that sit behind their computers and play want. When they make suggestions, we listen and try to do what they want and make it the best system there is to play under the circumstances we are in. Sweat and simple.
So, please Dave, don’t go knocking the system when you haven’t given it a chance. These systems are created for everyone, not just the super so called experienced, AA gamers.
Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Event Organizer/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering
www.headlesshorseman2.comA good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton
I second squirecams comments about having a partner for the AA50 - it can be a LOOOONNNGGG couple of days when you have little (or no) time to eat, drink, go to the restroom or bounce an idea off your partner or have him tell you that you forgot to move a certain piece into the proper position…
MM
There is pre-signup, which reminds me…
Do people have to sign up on the day of for the tournaments or is there a pre sign up thing?
The time sync isn’t thinking about NOs, it’s counting and explaining to beginner users.
I also disagree and I think this reaction is too strong. It’s one thing to have an online tournament but it’s completely different to do it in person with a time limit. Sure, maybe AA50 isn’t quite as interesting without NOs but it’s still Axis & Allies.
we wanted people to play asa much as possible, rather than spending additional time trying to figure out what NOs they had or how to get them.
What?
If you’re not competent enough to calculate NO’s at the end of the turn, or incorporate them into general strategic thinking, then you SHOULDN’T be playing Axis and Allies.
That’s like saying, “Lets play the game without Artillery, Cruisers, or Bombers, because we want people playing Axis and Allies, and not spending additional time figuring out what these units can do, and how many options they have”
Absurd.
Hold a risk tournament instead.
How many beginners are going to be at next years tournament?
How many beginners are going to be at next years tournament?
Versus, how many experienced players are going to be beginners all over again, because gameplay without NO’s is incredibly different?
