obscurantism? really? you think obscurantism? wow.
Wait - let me look up obscurantism - i really don’t know what that word means. I wonder if i’ve been teaching obscurantism all this time and didn’t realize it. Weird.
You are not teaching christianism as far as i know.
Fantasies? Which ones? All of the bible, or just the parts that you don’t agree with?
The part with god, angels, deamons, heaven, hell, unicorn, giant and dragon… well most of the bible.
The war? How violent. I think it’s important for everyone to continue to be nice to people and help people (obviously to know Jesus) but does the war for humanism mean a war against Christianity or deism or religion?
From my standpoint it is, because religion is useless, only a burden for science, philosophie and reason. Religion make people believe in simple thing, reductionist thing, and this is certainly not a good thing for anything. If you do not want to think; get into religion.
Why is this question so important tho’? I certainly can not answer it well, as i’ve only researched using lab rats, and i’ve conditioned myself to believing (kind of like Hitler, if you will) that i have authority over animals. If i couldn’t do that then i wouldn’t have been able to sacrifice the poor buggers for my research.
It is important because there is no reason to believe in our so called superiory and we would need one day to stop deaming about our supremacy on the earth and our destiny in the universe.
Bangalor; no i did not read nor heard or C.S Lewis and i really doupt he have any king of valid argument for the “theory” of god.
Sure i am not very good in english but obscurantism IS an english word.
Obscurantism
a policy of opposition to enlightenment or the spread of knowledge
:lol:
Boy Scouts are incredible Secular. I’m sorry I got so pissed, but the Boy Scouts have been an increasing problem for me. The leaders in my troop are 100% incredible conservative hardcore Catholics. I mean fanatics. My Parents are offical Catholics, though not hardcore ones. This makes them think I am Catholic. So, I am not forfilling my Boy Scout Religious Duties by not going to Church on Sundays. And they won’t advance me in rank because of it.
@F_alk:
@cystic:
obscurantism? really? you think obscurantism? wow.
Wait - let me look up obscurantism - i really don’t know what that word means. I wonder if i’ve been teaching obscurantism all this time and didn’t realize it. Weird.Booooooh !
CC, you know that english is not my or Finsternis first languange. With a bit of fantasy, you can clearly see what this word up there is made of:
obscure - tism ……This is at least the second time that you pick on FinsterniS’ english. Not really fair, i must say.
I mean, i could go and smack a lot of ppl here for mistakes they make… even though they are the native-english-speakers…Or maybe we should try to find a language that is second (or third or more) to all of us… and just see what happens then:
So, what about Latin? A language that every catholic should know :) …
i honestly did not know.
I figured that this was either a neologism or a word i’d never heard before.
Given that most of the Christians i know hold university degrees, are scientists, doctors or otherwise quite well educated and the like, and the fact that most universities until the 20th century were run by various churches (and still there are many colleges and universities that are run by Christian organizations) that are aimed towards promoting truth and “enlightenment” this definition escaped me. Furthermore, I try to be a voice of reason and i try to study, open my mind up to “possibilitites”. Few Christians that i know are so for superstitious reasons, nor do any of them teach a policy opposed to enlightenment or the spread of knowledge. Quite the opposite, really. Maybe i just know the wrong (or right) people.
Also, although i am a Mennonite, my German is VERY rusty (and don’t even ask about my plautdietsche - my grandparents would be sooooo ashamed), never mind my latin - which no Mennonites held on to since Menno Simons.
The war? How violent. I think it’s important for everyone to continue to be nice to people and help people (obviously to know Jesus) but does the war for humanism mean a war against Christianity or deism or religion?
From my standpoint it is, because religion is useless, only a burden for science, philosophie and reason. Religion make people believe in simple thing, reductionist thing, and this is certainly not a good thing for anything. If you do not want to think; get into religion.
If I don’t want to think, I should get into a religion? Now that’s pushing it. Take a look at the Jewish book of law, the Talmud. It is much harder than any subject I have ever learned. It requires lots of thinking to learn and can be very difficult to understand. In one year, I have gotten through maybe 4 pages of one tractate of Talmud, and that’s with studying it every day. Religion is not so simple as you think it is.
About Hitler’s nterpretation of the bible, there is a difference when you analyze something whne you are sane rather than when you are insane, like Hitler was. He was mentally unstable. To believe what he says in such a medical condition requires you to be very gullible. Also, when you interpret something, such as the Bible, you should be able to prove your thoughts.
Oh and about the criticism about your English, I dont think it’s very nice. My first language isn’t English either,and I’d hate to be insulted for it.
“Ich finde, wir koennen hier auch ne Privat-Unterhaltung starten.”
We’ve started a private conversation?
“Und ich hab keine Ahnung, ob das Wort englisch ist oder nicht…… aber selbst wenn nicht, könnte man leicht ahnen, worum es gehen soll.”
You don’t know if it’s a word but you understand the meaning, if I am correct in translating what you said.
Oh and about the criticism about your English, I dont think it’s very nice. My first language isn’t English either,and I’d hate to be insulted for it.
“Ich finde, wir koennen hier auch ne Privat-Unterhaltung starten.”
We’ve started a private conversation?
“Und ich hab keine Ahnung, ob das Wort englisch ist oder nicht…… aber selbst wenn nicht, könnte man leicht ahnen, worum es gehen soll.”
You don’t know if it’s a word but you understand the meaning, if I am correct in translating what you said.
Oh for goodness sake! I honestly did not know what FinsterniS was talking about. He’s accused me of “fanaticism” which i originally took as meaning “practicing a fantasy” and later realized that he was calling me a fanatic. I’ve learned not to assume anything on these boards - when i assume one is referencing me, being rhetorical, not being rhetorical, joking, being serious, etc. i often find out that i’m wrong. When accused of practicing something (teaching obsuraticsism or however its spelled) i’m not going to assume that my accuser is being accurate.
Please, i’m above poking fun at people because of language. My English is passable, my french would help me survive Montreal, my German is now virtually non-existant, and my Portuguese is struggling to say the least.
Now could this rest until i’m accused of practicing/teaching something else that i don’t understand?
Islaam, Buddism, Judasism, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, ect religions did the same. Again, I maintain that Christianity is only the present religion.
If I don’t want to think, I should get into a religion? Now that’s pushing it. Take a look at the Jewish book of law, the Talmud. It is much harder than any subject I have ever learned. It requires lots of thinking to learn and can be very difficult to understand. In one year, I have gotten through maybe 4 pages of one tractate of Talmud, and that’s with studying it every day. Religion is not so simple as you think it is.
I know some religion are more complex than other, some are even worthy of attention like buddhism and hinduim. To be honest i know a little about some mythology (German, Celtic, Greek, Roman) and some religion (Christianism, Hinduism, Buddhism) but if there is one religion i know nothing about this is Judaism and i would be very pleased if you can answer some questions to me.
About Hitler’s nterpretation of the bible, there is a difference when you analyze something whne you are sane rather than when you are insane, like Hitler was. He was mentally unstable. To believe what he says in such a medical condition requires you to be very gullible. Also, when you interpret something, such as the Bible, you should be able to prove your thoughts.
I admit my comparaison with hitler was’nt a very good analogy. You say we “should be able to prove your thoughts”… anyway it does not work with me and Christianism and i doupt there is a lot of people who tried as hard as me to “believe” in a logical god.
I just want to point out that if we cannot prove a religion (or at least prove it is probable) with logic and intellelect, all religion are as valid as the other. Zeus, Odin, Cernunnos, Belenos, Wotan, Allah, they are all equally valid as god.
Oh for goodness sake! I honestly did not know what FinsterniS was talking about. He’s accused me of “fanaticism” which i originally took as meaning “practicing a fantasy” and later realized that he was calling me a fanatic.
Well i am sorry if i am hard to understand sometime.
and the fact that most universities until the 20th century were run by various churches (and still there are many colleges and universities that are run by Christian organizations) that are aimed towards promoting truth and “enlightenment” this definition escaped me.
If a christian is teaching math, he is not teaching obscurantism.
If a christian is teaching christianism, he is teaching obscurantism.
Newton (a christian) was not teaching obscurantism, he was not teaching christianism and did not discor anything with christianism.
und Falk, ich schlafe nie… langweilig
Boy Scouts are incredible Secular. I’m sorry I got so pissed, but the Boy Scouts have been an increasing problem for me. The leaders in my troop are 100% incredible conservative hardcore Catholics. I mean fanatics. My Parents are offical Catholics, though not hardcore ones. This makes them think I am Catholic. So, I am not forfilling my Boy Scout Religious Duties by not going to Church on Sundays. And they won’t advance me in rank because of it.
No offense, but do Boy Scouts really matter? If they piss you off so much, why don’t you just quit. Sounds like a raw deal to me…
This is all the German I know
Los Los Los
Just for the record. No, I’m not a fascist. End of story.
P.S. - Somebody is going to get a lightning bolt up their ass… :evil:
cough Yanny here, I know who you are… false God!
If I don’t want to think, I should get into a religion? Now that’s pushing it. Take a look at the Jewish book of law, the Talmud. It is much harder than any subject I have ever learned. It requires lots of thinking to learn and can be very difficult to understand. In one year, I have gotten through maybe 4 pages of one tractate of Talmud, and that’s with studying it every day. Religion is not so simple as you think it is.
I know some religion are more complex than other, some are even worthy of attention like buddhism and hinduim. To be honest i know a little about some mythology (German, Celtic, Greek, Roman) and some religion (Christianism, Hinduism, Buddhism) but if there is one religion i know nothing about this is Judaism and i would be very pleased if you can answer some questions to me.
- Is jesus a false prophet or one of many minor prophet ?
- Is there a savior ?
- Is there heaven and hell ?
- Is there good and evil ?
- Is there an apocalypse ?
- Miracle are important ?
- How the jews consider themself in their religion ?
Sure, I’ll do my best but I may not be totally accuratei n all my answers. Looking them up would be best but it would take a while. I’ll try to the best of my ability.
1. Jesus is considered a false prophet in Judaism. In Judaism, there are laws that are used to tell if a prophet is a false prophet or a real prophet and Jesus falls under the category of a false one.
2. I’m not sure what you mean by a saviour. There is a messiah, which is what Christ means in Greek or Latin. It is one of the many Jewish beliefs taken by the Christians. There is a messiah, but he hasn’t arrived yet. In Judaism it is believed that there will be two messiahs, one of which will die. They are humans like the rest of us but are also prophets.
3. There definetely is a heaven, but hell is more difficult to understnad. I believe there are various opinions on Jewish hell, but from what I’ve studied it is believed that hell is simply a stopping point from which your soul is cleansed of its remaining sins before it goes to heaven. Jewish heaven and hell are quite different from Christian and Muslim heaven and hell. You don’t have a body in heaven or hell just the soul, which is more like pure energy. I can’t really describe it very well. It’s a very hard concept to understand.
4. Yes there is good and evil, but Jews believe that people have the free choice to choose whether to be good or evil. I posted how free choice works in an earlier post. Also, in Judaism, we cannot judge others as good or evil for the very reason that we dont know what other people do all the time. Someone can be a good person but bad in his relations to God. This does not mean he will go to hell. He can still go to heaven because relations between human beings come before relations with God. Someoen can be the opposite and still go to heaven as well. The Jewish justice system is even based on the principle of trying to make the accused be found innocent. The Jewish court system works differently than the general court system. I can go into more detail on it later if you like.
5.Yes, there is an apocalypse, but it is quite different frm the Christian apocalypse which has been derived from the Jewish one. In the Jewish apocalypse, the first messiah will die and two thirds of the Jews in the world will die. (One third die in the Holocaust alone). After the Jewish apocalypse, we believe that there will come a time when we will be allowed to serve God and the exile will end. The Roman exile is still occurring today. Judaism also believes that the Non-Jews will always remain, even after the apocalypse. That is a very major difference frm the Christian apocalypse. In the Christian apocalypse, I’m going to hell for not obeying Jesus. In the Jewish apocalypse, all the nations of the world will remain, the anti-semitism will simple fade away. People will also still die after the apocalypse and life will continue as it does today. It simply recognizes the beginning of the time when the Jews can serve God in peace without being attacked by anymore people like Hitler.
6. Mircales are important in our religion in order to rembmer what happened in the past and learn from them. The miracle of the victory against the Seleucid Empire and the lasting of the precious oil in the temple that the Seleucids tried to destroyed became a holiday called Chanukkah. The Seleucids left only a jug of oil that could last for a day but it miraculously lasted for 8 days. These miracles remind us that God, even when he punishes us, always saves us in the end. In fact, there is a reading done on the Jewish holiday of Passover called in Hebrew “Vehi She’amda”. It talks about how we thank God that in every generation someone tries to kill us off, but God saves us from being destroyed.
7. WE see ourselves n our religion in a way that seems racist to people who don’t understand the religion and simply want to criticize us. WE see ourselves as the “Chosen People” but that doesn’t mean we think we are superior in anyway. In Judaism, as the Chosen People, our job is to spread the teachings of God to the world. This does not mean missiionary work. That is against Judaism. All it means is showing the Non-Jews some of the best parts of our beliefs so that they may use them if they wish. Remember, Judaism was the first religion to have things such as a justice system, which the non-Jews eventually adapted. The Chosen People means we are on a different spiritual level than the Non-Jews. It doesn’t make us better in any way, all it does is really make our life much harder. It means we are judged differently. As a Jew, I have 613 basic fundamental laws that I have to obey while the most any Non-Jew really should obey according to Judaism are the 7 of the Noahide Laws. WE do not believe we are better in any way, we simply have to spread monotheism to the world by showing what is good about it. Nothing more. Life as a Jew is much harder than life as a non-Jew. I cannot eat foods such as pork, shrimpo, lobster or jellyfish. I also have many others rules I have to obey. As a Non-Jew, life is much more fun. You guys can do anything you like without being bound by so many laws.
I hoped I answered your questions adequately. I barely scratched the surface, though, because there are many more discussions on many subjects in Judaism, especially the last question you asked me. I can recommend further readings if you like. If you study Judaism, I think your views on religion might just change a little.
By the way, was my translation of the German at all correct?
4. Yes there is good and evil, but Jews believe that people have the free choice to choose whether to be good or evil.
I don’t believe there in good or evil so i will certainly not choose :)
7. WE see ourselves n our religion in a way that seems racist to people who don’t understand the religion and simply want to criticize us. WE see ourselves as the “Chosen People” but that doesn’t mean we think we are superior in anyway. In Judaism, as the Chosen People, our job is to spread the teachings of God to the world.
… i think this is a little arrogant, like most religion (exept buddhism)
This does not mean missiionary work.
Good thing ! Missionaire are making so much problem to “save” people.
Remember, Judaism was the first religion to have things such as a justice system, which the non-Jews eventually adapted.
hey wow, don’t forget Hinduism ! Quite older and there was a justice system (well, it still depent on your definition of a justice system).
The Chosen People means we are on a different spiritual level than the Non-Jews. It doesn’t make us better in any way, all it does is really make our life much harder. It means we are judged differently.
I don’t like the “different”… every human are human, and human are animal. A jew is my comrade in life as much as a chinese.
As a Jew, I have 613 basic fundamental laws that I have to obey while the most any Non-Jew really should obey according to Judaism are the 7 of the Noahide Laws. WE do not believe we are better in any way, we simply have to spread monotheism to the world by showing what is good about it.
You will have to admit that without monotheism they would not have so much religious war…
Nothing more. Life as a Jew is much harder than life as a non-Jew. I cannot eat foods such as pork, shrimpo, lobster or jellyfish. I also have many others rules I have to obey. As a Non-Jew, life is much more fun. You guys can do anything you like without being bound by so many laws.
I don’t want to make fun of your religion, but it always (well, since i am an atheis) make me laugh how much people WANT (really) to suffer for mythological being, the jews, the christians, the shinto.
I hoped I answered your questions adequately. I barely scratched the surface, though, because there are many more discussions on many subjects in Judaism, especially the last question you asked me. I can recommend further readings if you like. If you study Judaism, I think your views on religion might just change a little.
I have respect for some religion like Hinduism and Buddhism, but i still think they will eventually disappear like all religion… but it will take LOTS of time. At least atheism is growing in university; it’s a start :) . And even if judaism does not seem as bad as christianism, i do not think i’ll like it much if there is a god i cannot “see” with my reason. But i will read about it, this is an important religion, the father of two important religion.
Thank you very much for answering so well even to a sinners :)
3 other questions if you have the time/patience…
1; Does animal go to heaven ?
2; Is logic an important thing in judaism ?
3; Does judaism believe in evolution ?
According to the Christian Religion, Animals don’t go to Heavan. Humans are special.
Animals have just as much right to life as any human does.
I would take my friends dogs life over and human life in the middle east and never lose sleep over it.
Yanny i have a solution for u! QUIT Boscouts and Join the Hitler Youth!
JKING Join C.A.P. Civil Air Patrol! its fun there not Racist or Religeous biased u get to fly planes and Camp aswell. it is also better on college applications and ect. and we get to go to Army/AitForcebases and all that crap u evern get special privleges in bases that reg civillians do not get ;)
Um… no
eh u C A P biggot ;)
