Joe gets Germany, which means Charles gets the U.S.
Axis:
Joe = Germany
Ty = Japan
Allies:
Brett = UK
Charles = US
Chris’ friend = Russia
Are you proud of your country ?
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@F_alk:
I love the crusades and the antisemitism…. that’s why we exprted all the religious nutcases to the new world, where they had nothing else to do but found a bunch of states for themselves, slaughtering natives in a way that is really interesting.
Yes, we europeans have done a lot of mistakes, but we have learnt something from that. There is no need for you to repeat our mistakes. Just listen every now and then, what others have to say.
I hardly doubt that listening to the European’s would get us anywhere at all. Are you just trying to get a voice in somewhere, because you know that Europe doesn’t hold any real power anymore? Seems to me that you should be asking US for OUR advice. After all, wasn’t it us who saved Europe’s a.s.s in World War II? If it weren’t for the US, Europe would all be speaking German right now. Don’t be so arrogant as to assume that you have the answers to everything.
@F_alk:
You are in your puberty, and probably you hate to take advice from “older” ppl (brothers, sisters, parents, teachers, etc). You probably hate it even more when you have to admit that they were right here and there.
No need to be mean.
@F_alk:
Now: The US is dominating the world for nearly 60 years now. Europe dominated a long time before that. We have done our mistakes. We can see them. You are repeating not each and every, but most of them. There is no need to repeat them, if you listen to “your older brother” and then think!
What mistakes are we repeating? Back up this awfully crappy statement.
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@Deviant:Scripter:
I hardly doubt that listening to the European’s would get us anywhere at all. Are you just trying to get a voice in somewhere, because you know that Europe doesn’t hold any real power anymore? Seems to me that you should be asking US for OUR advice. After all, wasn’t it us who saved Europe’s a.s.s in World War II? If it weren’t for the US, Europe would all be speaking German right now. Don’t be so arrogant as to assume that you have the answers to everything.
Uggg. I love (read:hate) when i see/hear and American say “we saved your asses in WWII”. America wouldn’t even have been in WWII if Germany hadn’t declared war on it, and it took them 3 YEARS to finally send in the cavalry while Canada, Britain, Russia, and the free (non-neutral) countries in Europe lost many thousands of souls.
This is just another reason why Europeans (and us) have little regard for Americans (and foreign policy) at times - this attitude that what’s good for US is good for the US and screw the rest of the world.
America was too immature to join WWII early enough b/c of the movement of the America-firsters, as well as the pro-Germany elements (Kennedy’s et al.) - why should they be involved in a war in Europe, after all? It took a declaration of war against the US before they finally gave more than token assistance to the Allies.
Canada may be younger than the US, but i think that it too is more mature in its thinking with regards to the rest of the world than the US. Compare to a person - as a child is raised - they are the center of attention. When they become an adult then they focus their attention elsewhere - on family etc, and look less to their own needs than too others. The US is still in this inward-looking phase (certainly she is generous to a point, however there is generally an obvious agenda that attends this generosity). -
The US is still in this inward-looking
I agree !
And BTW; we are not as strong as the USA (from an economical point of view), but the EU is still strong.
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I like Americans.
I like American bravado( I like saying that…bravado, bravado)
The US was contributing all kinds of resoures to the war right from the start. There were plenty of American volunteers to fight in Europe.
Did the US save everyones ass?
I don’t know for sure, but it didn’t hurt to have them involved.If they didn’t join, Germany would have probably fought Russia to a stand
still. Russia was on the offensive big time by Dec 7/42.\For sure, the state that Europe would have been in if America didn’t get involved would be much different than today.
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Quotes by CC
America wouldn’t even have been in WWII if Germany hadn’t declared war on it
Yes… leave it to the Germans to Pearl Harbor us before we get involved in WWII. Good one.
and it took them 3 YEARS to finally send in the cavalry while Canada, Britain, Russia, and the free (non-neutral) countries in Europe lost many thousands of souls.
Your recollection of the timeline of World War II in the Atlantic Theater is very poor. What about North Africa, what about Sicily, what about Italy, what about the 8th Air Force, what about the US Navy and Merchant Marine? Food for thought, we would’ve come to France’s aid sooner if we were not “held-back” by the British who feared (like in WWI), we would suffer too many losses if we D-Day’ed too early having not sufficiently prepared for it.
US [gave] token assistance to the Allies.
You’re right. So why should US even bother at all? If the thanks we get is “token” assistance, why bother? Why throw away so many American lives in vain? Why send millions of Americans troops to fight in a foreign battlefield if it counts as merely “token assistance.” Why supply the Allies with billions of dollars in war material? I’m very disappointed in you.
The US is still in this inward-looking phase (certainly she is generous to a point, however there is generally an obvious agenda that attends this generosity).
Almost every country in the world is “inward” looking by these standards. Quite sad really, but that’s the way the world has been.
America was too immature to join WWII early enough b/c of the movement of the America-firsters, as well as the pro-Germany elements (Kennedy’s et al.) - why should they be involved in a war in Europe, after all?
Yes, moral of the story: jump in the moment a war breaks out. Good one. “American-firsters?” Yes, American first when it comes to cash-and-carry, lend-lease, destroyers for bases, merchant shipping in active war zones, and embargos, right? Good one.
Quote by Mr Ghoul
Did the US save everyones ass?
Maybe. The Pacific certainly, but the Atlantic? Chances are that Russian might’ve gone on to defeat German with or without our help.
I like Americans.
I like American bravado( I like saying that…bravado, bravado)
Thank you, though I don’t understand exactly what you mean by “American bravado?”
Quote by F_alk
Thank you.
I think i know what you mean, as i am a human being first, then a european and a north german (these two are equally important for me) and then after quite some time a german.I am glad that statistics don’t lie and there are smart USies out there ….
Thanks a lot :), though I don’t know if I consider myself a North American first before an American [United States]
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“Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?”
- John Bellushi from Animal House
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@TG:
Quotes by CC
America wouldn’t even have been in WWII if Germany hadn’t declared war on it
Yes… leave it to the Germans to Pearl Harbor us before we get involved in WWII. Good one.
Come on Moses, i’m not that ignorant. British intelligence “leaked” documents to the Germans suggesting that America would be declaring war on Germany. Hitler declared war on America pre-emptively. I believe that Pearl Harbour was unrelated.
and it took them 3 YEARS to finally send in the cavalry while Canada, Britain, Russia, and the free (non-neutral) countries in Europe lost many thousands of souls.
Your recollection of the timeline of World War II in the Atlantic Theater is very poor. What about North Africa, what about Sicily, what about Italy, what about the 8th Air Force, what about the US Navy and Merchant Marine? Food for thought, we would’ve come to France’s aid sooner if we were not “held-back” by the British who feared (like in WWI), we would suffer too many losses if we D-Day’ed too early having not sufficiently prepared for it.
I would have to check on that. At the same time, America was quite hesitent to enter WWII, and would not have landed in France earlier than 1942.
US [gave] token assistance to the Allies.
You’re right. So why should US even bother at all? If the thanks we get is “token” assistance, why bother? Why throw away so many American lives in vain? Why send millions of Americans troops to fight in a foreign battlefield if it counts as merely “token assistance.” Why supply the Allies with billions of dollars in war material? I’m very disappointed in you.
ouch. You hurt me when you say that Moses. The fact is the world is getting smaller. This begs the question - what kind of Europe would the US have preferred dealing with - a Jewless/Slavic-less etc. dictatorship governed by a crazed lunatic? Or Hitler’s Germany . . . ( :) )
The US is still in this inward-looking phase (certainly she is generous to a point, however there is generally an obvious agenda that attends this generosity).
Almost every country in the world is “inward” looking by these standards. Quite sad really, but that’s the way the world has been.
Fair enough. Much of the developed world is perhaps not so obvious about it - perhaps America’s wealth and power exaggerate this phenomenon.
America was too immature to join WWII early enough b/c of the movement of the America-firsters, as well as the pro-Germany elements (Kennedy’s et al.) - why should they be involved in a war in Europe, after all?
Yes, moral of the story: jump in the moment a war breaks out. Good one. “American-firsters?” Yes, American first when it comes to cash-and-carry, lend-lease, destroyers for bases, merchant shipping in active war zones, and embargos, right? Good one.
Well, as i said, there was some token assistance given early on, but only as much as Roosevelt felt was politically feasible. Too many Americans did not want to be involved, and both German elements (the 5th column) and the “American-Firsters” were quite active in delaying the American foray into the war.
This is not to say that America does not/did not contribute to WWII, but rather to indicate my feeling that the boast that “America saved Europe’s ass in WWII” is inappropriate. Moses, you know that i’m prolly (aside from Ghoul) one of the more “pro-American” non-Americans out here from other forums.
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Why is there so much arrogance when it comes to the European view of looking back on World War II? Maybe this is one possibility for the reason that America is so hesitant to get involved with foreign affairs of this nature. Seems to me like all we get is a bunch of crap regardless of what decision we make.
Europeans need to accept that fact that actually “needed help” and they were lucky that America came to their aid.
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My deviant friend forgets about the massive population and industrial capacity of the Soviet Union during the war. Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be getting better).
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My deviant friend forgets about the massive population and industrial capacity of the Soviet Union during the war. Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be getting better).
Actually No, I didn’t forget about anything. The Russians’ were superior soldiers’ when it came to adapting to the weather conditions, something the overconfident German’s could not handle.
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I’ve read that the Russians killed 80-90% of German forces. Indeed this may belong under the “communism does not work” thread as communist ideals contributed greatly to the Russian war machine - a populace devoted to the strength of the soviet union worked well - both in the factories and in the trenches - some might credit communism with Russia’s successes against Germany (not only the cold weather and thinned resources . . . ).
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Good point. But long term, look where Russia is now.
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Hitler hated Jews and Catholics, mainly because his mother was Jewish and his father was Catholic. The second largest group persecuted by the holocaust were the Catholics!
Nazis, WHite supremacists, don’t like Catholics. They don’t like Orthodox either. They only like protestants (like Crypt) Not to say that Nazis are followers of Christ at all, I have heard references that they held many pagan beliefs, which is in addition to them persecuting Christians and not following Christian teachings.
CAtholicism is not responsible for Hitler.
YOu could maybe say that France is responsible.
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@CC:
Come on Moses, i’m not that ignorant. British intelligence “leaked” documents to the Germans suggesting that America would be declaring war on Germany. Hitler declared war on America pre-emptively. I believe that Pearl Harbour was unrelated.
Yep, leave it to those “sneaky” Brits to leak documents to the Germans. Kind of like the Zimmerman Note, no? However, I’m not exactly sure how the above comment relates to “America wouldn’t even have been in WWII if Germany hadn’t declared war on it.” There are many reasons why Germany declared war on US: Rome-Tokyo-Berlin Axis, Victory Syndrome, Active Conflicts between German U-Boats and US Destroyers, US Breaking “Neutrality” Laws, and other factors. As for Germany declaring war “preemptively,” I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this.
At the same time, America was quite hesitent to enter WWII, and would not have landed in France earlier than 1942.
Plausible, though if British called a D-Day Invasion a no-go, chances are America would not have “gone it alone.” In regards to the earlier statement, it was well known about America’s isolationist statement and there is creditability in it. Should we have intervened 1939? That remains to be debated. However, please read more America’s history before WWII (fighting the Great Depression, resentment of WWI, ect) before commenting on our “hesitancy.” I will say that the majority of Americans did support a form of “active neutrality” that might’ve resulted in war. Then there is the American Constitution itself, which does not permit US to enter a war unless declared upon, attacked, or invaded.
“No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.” - Article I, Section 10, Clause 3
ouch. You hurt me when you say that Moses. The fact is the world is getting smaller. This begs the question - what kind of Europe would the US have preferred dealing with - a Jewless/Slavic-less etc. dictatorship governed by a crazed lunatic? Or Hitler’s Germany . . . ( )
Sorry, I have no idea what you’re saying. I merely wanted an answer to your assertion “It took a declaration of war against the US before they finally gave more than token assistance to the Allies.” I brought out America’s cash and carry, lend lease, destroyers for bases, Naval Coverage into active war zones, et al. So far your response has been less than fulfilling.
Fair enough. Much of the developed world is perhaps not so obvious about it - perhaps America’s wealth and power exaggerate this phenomenon.
I can only give you a penitent response that as an American and a Communist, I will try harder in the future.
Well, as i said, there was some token assistance given early on, but only as much as Roosevelt felt was politically feasible. Too many Americans did not want to be involved, and both German elements (the 5th column) and the “American-Firsters” were quite active in delaying the American foray into the war.
Again, Congress kept Roosevelt’s hands tied behind his back when the war broke out. He tried the best he could and as the war continued (and the Allied situation worsened), the American people began to support Roosevelt’s daring actions more and more. By 1941, many Americans were supporting any means short of war.
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My deviant friend forgets about the massive population and industrial capacity of the Soviet Union during the war. Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be getting better).
True, USSR was of immense help to the Allied cause – that is undeniable. Allied victory would’ve still been possible without them, though those cost would’ve ranged in the many millions of Allied lives lost. However, you are also forgetting the product of “Eastern Superiority” feelings after the Cold War. Both Western and Russian history text are incorrect. It is a Western MYTH that the Russians were ONLY able to defeat to Germans due to “luck” and “superior numbers.” Superior numbers were of no doubt an overwhelming help, but without adequate Russian training and equipment [which many Western historians tend to deride], those numbers wouldn’t be as advantageous. But like Bossk said, modern Western Historians are much more truthful and objective about the Eastern Front (due in large part to the end of the Cold War and the opening up of previously classified Soviet achieves). Likewise, it is an Eastern MYTH that Russia did not liberate almost all of Europe (including France), while the Americans only liberated Italy.
I’ve read that the Russians killed 80-90% of German forces. Indeed this may belong under the “communism does not work” thread as communist ideals contributed greatly to the Russian war machine - a populace devoted to the strength of the soviet union worked well - both in the factories and in the trenches - some might credit communism with Russia’s successes against Germany (not only the cold weather and thinned resources . . . ).
The notion of the populace banding together and working feverishly is communistic, though communism is most beneficial in times of peace. Look what the Cold War did to the Soviet Union as a key example.
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Well the fact hitler was christian does not mean all christian were facist, i just answer about your hateful comment about europe…
I am sorry to break some of your dream about a clean Catholic church, but hitler WAS a Catholic. Sure some will say he was an Atheist (a very funny one), other will say he worship ancient god, backing up their thesis with some obscure conversation or comment… but the fact remain Hitler was, his hate of the jew was not purely strategical nor emotional. In “Mein Kamf” (My fight) he clearly said he was a catholic and his action as a leader can only confirm that his conviction were in some part religious.
“Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s Work.”
“Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews … The work that Christ started but could not finish, I – Adolf Hitler – will conclude.”
Sure catholic don’t want to claim hitler as follower of their faith so they prefer to blind themself with mere illusion (like they always do by my opinion). Anyway i did not want to argue with a catholic with such thing but if you are unable to see that because of your faith, then other catholic risk to make the same mistake. I know Stalin was an Atheist, i don’t want to fall into somekind of fanatism…
…And even the church itself is not clean in the second World War, some document are still inacessible for the public…
Anyway i am making some distinction you are not, a christian is someone that believe in christianism. A christian is rarely a pure incarnation of christianism so you cannot blame christianism for all the crime of the christians even if christianism is clearly in accordance with the christian’s action. I am sure the basis of Christianism would not have endorse the crusades nor hitler.
YB you are the stereotypical American… christians, conservative, you hate france without even knowing why, overtly nationalist…
I think i know what you mean, as i am a human being first, then a european and a north german (these two are equally important for me) and then after quite some time a german.
I am first an Human being
Then an European
And finally a Prussian (es ist sehr heiss hier :evil: ) -
YB you are the stereotypical American… christians, conservative, you hate france without even knowing why, overtly nationalist…
I have no idea where you got “conservative” for stereotypical American from. From where I was raised, the stereotype was liberal Americans out to get us. Rest assured, I am sure most of America [unfortunately] is liberal, just not as liberal as Europe maybe.
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Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be
getting better).Yup …. it’s rarely mentioned that the soviety had, well, crappy looking, but bloody deadly arms (esp. tanks and tactical bombers).
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@Deviant:Scripter:
@F_alk:
Yes, we europeans have done a lot of mistakes, but we have learnt something from that. There is no need for you to repeat our mistakes. Just listen every now and then, what others have to say.
I hardly doubt that listening to the European’s would get us anywhere at all. Are you just trying to get a voice in somewhere, because you know that Europe doesn’t hold any real power anymore? Seems to me that you should be asking US for OUR advice.
well, if you can show me, how power and wisdom are the same … then i will agree that everyone should listen to the US: Otherwise, think of why power and wisdom are not the same, and where wisdom might help the powerful, so that all can benefit!
After all, wasn’t it us who saved Europe’s a.s.s in World War II? If it weren’t for the US, Europe would all be speaking German right now. Don’t be so arrogant as to assume that you have the answers to everything.
I thought it was russian, as one of your fellow USies claimed……
and: i speak german most of the time anyway evilgrin@F_alk:
You are in your puberty, …
No need to be mean.
The truth hurts ?? Come on, where was it mean: hurting maybe, mean no!
What mistakes are we repeating? Back up this awfully crappy statement.
You really want the whole list?
I just start with: economic dictatorship over other ppl, making them colonies effectively. Ignoring any other ppls/religions interest, regardless how important it may be for that ppl/religion! Have you really been surprised that terrorists would take the battle to your home some day…. then you have not learned anything!
These just for starters. -
@Mr:
I like Americans.
I like American bravado( I like saying that…bravado, bravado)
The US was contributing all kinds of resoures to the war right from the start. There were plenty of American volunteers to fight in Europe.
Did the US save everyones ass?
I don’t know for sure, but it didn’t hurt to have them involved.If they didn’t join, Germany would have probably fought Russia to a stand
still. Russia was on the offensive big time by Dec 7/42.\For sure, the state that Europe would have been in if America didn’t get involved would be much different than today.
I’m a dumb ass!
I meant it to read Dec7/41….stupid
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