Current actions in the Middle East

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

@F_alk:

'56 the military actions were started by Israel.
'67 the war was started by Israel.
'73 the war was started by Egypt.
'78 Israel conquered the “security zone” in the Lebanon
'82 Israel attacked the Lebanon and seized Beirut

Now that’s a twist on historical events! In 1956 the war was started by Egypt who nationalized the Suez Canal. In 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike. Their intelligence officer in Damascus, Eli Cohen, who almost became president of Syria be the way, found out of an impending invasion by Arab forces and Israel had no choice but to attack first. The next war as the War of Attrition from later in 1967 to 1971. This was a very bloody war. In 1973, the war was started by Syria.

Well, i have my information form www.hagalil.com, which is a jewish (though not officially israeli) site.
For the pre-emptive strike: So, russia started the war against germany in WWII (mnay right wing historians claim that Hitler just launched a pre-emptive strike).
And Jom Kippur was started by a coordinated attack by egypt and syria, sorry that i forgot to mention the second one.

[TG Moses VI]

F_alk, you’re from Germany, right? What was the book that the leftist Germans banned because it told the “true” story about Hitler’s need to invade USSR. Though I may not completely concur with it (Stalin was very much Hitler’s lapdog, and many Soviet leaders did not plan war with Germany until at least 1950), I’m intrested in checking it out.

[EmuGod]

Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941 against the Soviet Union because the Soviets had wheat fields that he needed to expand his “Aryan” race. The Nazis did attack the Soviet Union first.

[EmuGod]

Did any of you hear that Belgium found Sharon innocent of the “war crimes” he had been acuessed of at Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 82? They claimed he was indirectly responsible forthe Lebanese militia massacring Palestinians there.

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941 against the Soviet Union because the Soviets had wheat fields that he needed to expand his “Aryan” race. The Nazis did attack the Soviet Union first.

And Israel attacked in '67. That was my point. Pre-emptive strike or not (for both examples).

@EmuGod:

Did any of you hear that Belgium found Sharon innocent of the “war crimes” he had been acuessed of at Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 82? They claimed he was indirectly responsible forthe Lebanese militia massacring Palestinians there.

Do i mention war crimes? No. Did Israel attack the Lebanon in '82? Yes.

[Guest]

Moses, sorry i don’t know the title of that book. I know that some historians from the ultra-right wing supprt this idea though. Not really sorry that i can’t help (i hate to promote that stuff) :), but have you tried to google it?

[TG Moses VI]

Well I think it was called “Stalin’s War of Extermination” (which could be true, but on the wrong of race people). I’ll try looking it up later tonight and report any finds. 8)

[HortenFlyingWing]

“Well, controlling the water in that area of the world is the same as controlling the land. Without water, there is no irrigation and nothing to drink for the ppl. The land is worthless to the ppl if they don’t have water, so the “control” still would be in israeli hands.”

Yes, but if the palestinians had the water, then it would be in their hands, correct? So should a country giving peace to a nation that would most likely destroy it give up both of their water supply?

[HortenFlyingWing]

@F_alk:

@Xi:

The territories are not occupied. I was attacked repeatedly by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan('56, '67, '73 if I remember correctly). They won the wars and took the territories to insure their continued security.

'56 the military actions were started by Israel.
'67 the war was started by Israel.
'73 the war was started by Egypt.
'78 Israel conquered the “security zone” in the Lebanon
'82 Israel attacked the Lebanon and seized Beirut

that’s way overly simplistic. especially when the enemy was mounting forces and firing artillary shells and raiding israel.

So germany didn’t start World War, poland did.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@EmuGod:

Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941 against the Soviet Union because the Soviets had wheat fields that he needed to expand his “Aryan” race. The Nazis did attack the Soviet Union first.

Yes, Geopolotik.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@EmuGod:

Did any of you hear that Belgium found Sharon innocent of the “war crimes” he had been acuessed of at Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 82? They claimed he was indirectly responsible forthe Lebanese militia massacring Palestinians there.

no, pro-palestinian people, and many people politically to the left choose not to hear it.

[Guest]

@HortenFlyingWing:

So germany didn’t start World War, poland did.

What? Do i speak Swahili? (no offense against anyone who does!)
No, of course not. Germany started the war. You don’t believe the nazi propaganda, do you? So, why do you come up with this question, which to me seems totally out of context?

[EmuGod]

It depends on your opinion for who started WW2. I think that France, Britain and the United States started it with the Treaty of Versailles. It was horrible and unjust. Germany shouldn’t have been put to blame for World War 1. Every country that fought in it had to take some responsibility. But that’s my opinion. You can also say WW2 started when Japan invaded Manchuria or when Italy invaded Ethiopia or when Hitler or Mussolini came to power.

[Guest]

then i should have used “attacked” and not “started the war” in my above posting? is that what you were complaining about?

[EmuGod]

Yes, that would have been better. If you want to claim that they started the war, use evidence to back up your idea please.

[Guest]

No, my point was all about that it wasn’t Israel who was attacked all the time, but Israel who attacked most of the time.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@F_alk:

then i should have used “attacked” and not “started the war” in my above posting? is that what you were complaining about?

Yes but Arabs were shelling the ISraelis and using “terrorism.” They had to attack in 67.

“ou don’t believe the nazi propaganda, do you? So, why do you come up with this question, which to me seems totally out of context?”

IOf you believed the NY Times in 1941, Russia provoked Germany into launching Operation Barbrossa.

[TG Moses VI]

“IOf you believed the NY Times in 1941, Russia provoked Germany into launching Operation Barbrossa.”

Horten’s writings got me thinking, and I did look up the book me and F_alk were talking about: “Stalin’s War of Extermination”

Let me tell you what this book’s editorial had to say:

“Since the 1920s, Stalin planned the “World Revolution.” The outbreak of war in 1939 gave him the opportunity to realize his plans violently. This did not escape Germany’s notice who in turn planned a preventive strike. Dr. Hoffmann’s book proves Stalin’s aggressive intentions, shows how the Bolsheviks used unimaginable violence to force their own unwilling soldiers to fight against the Germans. Furthermore, this book reveals not only the atrocious treatment of German POWs by the Red Army, but explains also how Soviet soldiers were incited to unlimited hatred against everything German. Finally, it gives the reader an unpleasant glimpse into the gigantic wave of looting, arson, rape, torture, and mass murder that befell East Germany at the end of the war. Stalin’s War was a war of extermination both against Germany and against the peoples of the Soviet Union. It was not before 1948 that the US government realized that it fought against the wrong enemy in Europe during WWII. The author, a former historian of the German government, is one of the world’s finest experts on the German-Soviet war. His book is a huge success in Germany where left-wingers unsuccessfully tried to urge the parliament to ban it and punish its author.”

Intresting. Here is a reader’s review of it:

“Another piece in the missing history of World War Two. Basically this book goes on to destroy the myths held and propagated by left-wingers that the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin was peace loving and had no intention of military operations on foreign soil. It also absolutely destroys the myths of the “Great Patriotic War,” “Mass Heroism,” and “Soviet Patriotism” by the Soviet peoples. The book begins with the declaration by Stalin a war of aggression he intends to wage against the capitalists Germany and Western Europe. It details the propaganda and above all the absolute terror used by the Soviets against there own unwilling soldiers in order to fight the Germans. Basically the Red Army soldier had two choices, either face the Germans or get a bullet in the back of the neck by the NKVD and severe consequences for his relatives. The author lays out all the propaganda used to incite extreme hatred of everything German, to criminalize the Wehrmacht, blame Soviet crimes on the Germans, and to dehumanize the Germans into vermin. The book also covers the Soviet mistreatment of POW’s, both German, Axis, and repatriated Red Army soldiers. How the Soviets ordered that all prisoners of war should be shot, and that surrendering to the enemy is a crime. The most disturbing is the chapters covering the events of Soviet occupation of German soil starting in the fall of 1944. The actions taken by the Red Army soldiers upon the “liberated” German civilian population, murder, arson, rape, and looting, is beyond belief. I highly encourage anyone to read this book, especially those students of history like myself.”

I wonder what you guys would have to say about it?

[Mr Ghoul]

@TG:

“IOf you believed the NY Times in 1941, Russia provoked Germany into launching Operation Barbrossa.”

Horten’s writings got me thinking, and I did look up the book me and F_alk were talking about: “Stalin’s War of Extermination”

Let me tell you what this book’s editorial had to say:

“Since the 1920s, Stalin planned the “World Revolution.” The outbreak of war in 1939 gave him the opportunity to realize his plans violently. This did not escape Germany’s notice who in turn planned a preventive strike. Dr. Hoffmann’s book proves Stalin’s aggressive intentions, shows how the Bolsheviks used unimaginable violence to force their own unwilling soldiers to fight against the Germans. Furthermore, this book reveals not only the atrocious treatment of German POWs by the Red Army, but explains also how Soviet soldiers were incited to unlimited hatred against everything German. Finally, it gives the reader an unpleasant glimpse into the gigantic wave of looting, arson, rape, torture, and mass murder that befell East Germany at the end of the war. Stalin’s War was a war of extermination both against Germany and against the peoples of the Soviet Union. It was not before 1948 that the US government realized that it fought against the wrong enemy in Europe during WWII. The author, a former historian of the German government, is one of the world’s finest experts on the German-Soviet war. His book is a huge success in Germany where left-wingers unsuccessfully tried to urge the parliament to ban it and punish its author.”

Intresting. Here is a reader’s review of it:

“Another piece in the missing history of World War Two. Basically this book goes on to destroy the myths held and propagated by left-wingers that the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin was peace loving and had no intention of military operations on foreign soil. It also absolutely destroys the myths of the “Great Patriotic War,” “Mass Heroism,” and “Soviet Patriotism” by the Soviet peoples. The book begins with the declaration by Stalin a war of aggression he intends to wage against the capitalists Germany and Western Europe. It details the propaganda and above all the absolute terror used by the Soviets against there own unwilling soldiers in order to fight the Germans. Basically the Red Army soldier had two choices, either face the Germans or get a bullet in the back of the neck by the NKVD and severe consequences for his relatives. The author lays out all the propaganda used to incite extreme hatred of everything German, to criminalize the Wehrmacht, blame Soviet crimes on the Germans, and to dehumanize the Germans into vermin. The book also covers the Soviet mistreatment of POW’s, both German, Axis, and repatriated Red Army soldiers. How the Soviets ordered that all prisoners of war should be shot, and that surrendering to the enemy is a crime. The most disturbing is the chapters covering the events of Soviet occupation of German soil starting in the fall of 1944. The actions taken by the Red Army soldiers upon the “liberated” German civilian population, murder, arson, rape, and looting, is beyond belief. I highly encourage anyone to read this book, especially those students of history like myself.”

I wonder what you guys would have to say about it?

Dam Russian Bastards!! :evil:

Seriously though I would like to read that book.

[TG Moses VI]

Yeah, I’m thinking so of myself. However, this book does seem to be a little too biased.

“This did not escape Germany’s notice who in turn planned a preventive strike.”

I thought this was based on the thoughts of expanding the “Ayrian” and provide more supplies and materials for a long war against England. Wasn’t Operation Barbarossa not completely planned out until after the Battle of Britain was deemed a “failure?”

“Since the 1920s, Stalin planned the “World Revolution.””

I don’t know, wasn’t it Trotsky who wanted pursue a global revolution? I think Stalin was more content to consolidate his gains in Russia.

“Furthermore, this book reveals not only the atrocious treatment of German POWs by the Red Army, but explains also how Soviet soldiers were incited to unlimited hatred against everything German.”

And on the same scale, you could also say that the German treatment of Russian POWs was atrocious (Hitler hated the Russians) – or at least until the Germans realized that they needed them in the West (ie D-Day). However, the later statement is true.

“Finally, it gives the reader an unpleasant glimpse into the gigantic wave of looting, arson, rape, torture, and mass murder that befell East Germany at the end of the war.”

Again, this is true. However, I think the author also fails to mention the devastation Germany inflicted on Russia during the war.

“It was not before 1948 that the US government realized that it fought against the wrong enemy in Europe during WWII.”

Haha. Looks like Patton was right all along! Let’s arm those Nazis and get them to help us fight the Russians! :wink:

“The author, a former historian of the German government, is one of the world’s finest experts on the German-Soviet war.”

Hopefully, as a historian, he will clear up the questions I poise from above.

“Propagated by left-wingers that the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin was peace loving and had no intention of military operations on foreign soil.”

Sorry, but even I have to say these left-wingers were wrong if they think Josef Stalin was a peace loving guy.

“It also absolutely destroys the myths of the “Great Patriotic War,” “Mass Heroism,” and “Soviet Patriotism””

I don’t know about this. Most Russians did fight with uncommon valor in the face of the motherland being invaded. What were the consequences? Maybe, the extermination or enslavement of the Russians (Hitler had also planned this out along with the Jews) and having all there land become part of the “Aryan Breadbasket?” I do agree, that many Russians were forced to fight though.

“The author lays out all the propaganda used to incite extreme hatred of everything German, to criminalize the Wehrmacht, blame Soviet crimes on the Germans, and to dehumanize the Germans into vermin.”

All true.