Strict Barbarossa viable?

[creeping-deth87]

I know Sea Lion is a very popular strategy, but is a strict Barbarossa strategy viable in alpha 3? I was thinking as early as first turn, leaving the European neutrals to Italy and taking all the French territories for the Germans, allowing all the Eastern front German units available to attack Russia on 1st turn.

What would the purchases be like on a turn-by-turn basis for a strict Barbarossa game? Ideal time to attack?

[ronrye]

Yes, barbarosa is a good strategy and it works with Alpha 3. If Germany doesn’t go for sealion first, London generally will not fall later on before Moscow is taken. That being said, the easiest VCs to control for victory, imho, are Berlin, Warsaw, Paris, Rome, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, and Cairo. Cairo poses a bit of a problem for the axis when sealion isn’t done because UK can spend its resources in Africa and overwhelm Italy so that it’s difficult to take.

As for purchases for each turn, I’ll let a more experienced player take that, but one thing I think is important is lots of infantry. You will want infantry both to attack Russia (along with art), and for defense in western europe. If you prepare early on, it will be much harder for UK or US to gain a foothold in Europe later on.

[A Former User]

The basic take over Russia purchases would infantry with a small amount of artillery early on for maybe 2 or 3 turns. Make a judgement call depending on how things are going. Cradle the armor that you already have on the board and don’t leave them out in the open unless they have many infantry to soak up hits. (Unless of course the Russians make a mistake and allow a blitz which an experienced one won’t so you can almost disregard this). Afterwards I would suggest large amounts of armor with a few mechanized infantry for maybe 2 turns. If you have any of Russia’s minor IC’s then I would defiantly build infantry out of them. Then by the time you are ready for the final battle in Moscow, its time to build bombers. Of course and experienced player could slow down any of this especially if England and America are knocking at the door hard enough.

[knp7765]

Even if you don’t want to do a Sealion, you have got to pound Britain’s navy.  Especially make sure to go after any transports Britain has then use your Luftwaffe and submarines to keep the Brits from putting any new navy around England.  Depending on your UK player, it’s entirely possible that he/she may, once they see Sealion is not a threat, concentrate most of their resources in the Med.  This will be bad news for Italy but good for Germany to focus more on Russia.

Also, by not taking London, you can keep USA out of the conflict for 3 rounds which is one less thing for Germany to worry about, that is unless Japan does something to screw that up.  Even when USA is in the conflict, they might just focus more of their attention on Japan, which would mean even less pressure on Germany.

Personally, I wouldn’t attack Russia on G1.  I just don’t think Germany has enough assets along the Eastern border.  Leave Yugoslavia to Italy if you wish, but as Germany I would at least take Bulgaria and get those extra 4 infantry.  Move them to Romania G2 plus stuff you may have built in Berlin.  This also gives you a chance to move some of your armor used on France to the east.  Then attack on G3 when you have a lot more men, artillery and tanks to do it with.  Germany will have much more stuff than Russia and it will be in better position.  Odds are most of Russia’s stuff will still be back on Moscow.

[Spendo02]

About a month ago my friend played this to great effect.  He went after Russia on G2 after dealing with the UK fleet on G1. He traded Normandy with the UK later on, but he took Moscow (due to a Russian failed counter attack in Belarus).  I was able to play Italy to good effect as the UK focused on hindering the German advance instead of the Med.  I was able to take Cairo, but holding it was questionable with UK tanks headed up from S.Africa.

The US focused on a Pacific Strategy, had lost Hawaii and reclaimed it and was chasing the Japanese across the Pacific with a large stack of Subs and an outgunned carrier fleet.  Japan was in trouble with a US fleet sitting in SZ6 doing convoy damage and her large flotilla still a turn from returning from Calcutta.

When Moscow fell, the Allies conceded (Only Stalingrad was needed for an Axis VC win).  We rolled the Japanese attack in SZ6 and the Japanese lost the fight.  In the end, we decided it was close to a draw because Japan was basically done in the Pacific and it was coming down to who could take and hold Cairo in Europe.

[Spendo02]

If my memory served me correctly, with the exception of a StratB, Germany basically bought tanks for 3 rounds and relied on the starting infantry + infantry from Finland and Bulgaria to take the hits.  G2 was the initial push into Russia and never split his stack.  Took one detour into Leningrad to cover the units chasing the big stack from Germany and give them a round to “catch up”.

Moscow fell on turn 6 or 7 I think.  If you eliminate the detour into Leningrad, its turn a earlier.  That last wave of Inf catching up due to the detour made all the difference in taking Moscow.  Just note that Moscow tried to counter attack and lost.  If they retreated, it may have delayed a German attack on Moscow to turn 8 or 9.

[jim010]

There’s a turn 6 Russia Rush out there.  Can be modified into a turn 7.  You need to buy mec and tanks and use 3 TTs.  You take Leningrad in this one.

[Young Grasshopper]

I will be playing Germany our next group game and we have decided to play test the new setup suggestions from Harris game design .com.

-French cruiser from 112 to 110
-UK cruiser from 112 to 111
-UK destroyer in 106 changed to cruiser
-and German transport from 113 to 114

Thinking about a G1 attack on Russia for a few reasons

1. Too risky for my airforce to attack majority of UK ships, especially now that the Poland and Slovak planes can’t reach.

2. I’ve never seen Russia on their heels so early so I will have surprise.

3. Italy needs all the money it can get, so why not attack and leave the land for them.

I figure I will only get a little over half of the British fleet, so I will need to purchase 3 fighters G1 and use air units all game to keep the UK navy in check. I might send both bombers to Lenningrad G1 for a raid, than split them thereafter between any minors Russia wants to use, the German ships will also be in 115 attacking Russian navy and landing in the Baltic states. The English sea zones I will be hitting with all subs and planes from Norway, holland, and west Germany are, 106, 111 and the cruiser off Gibraltar.

Any thoughts.

[jim010]

Without having the map in front of me, can you even take any russian zones and keep them, or will Russia boot you out on R1?  If so, then why bother attacking G1?

[otahere34]

I have a friend who does this, but he purchases only tanks until after moscow falls. He doesn’t beleive in infantry and is very 1 unit minded in all the countries he plays. That being said, moscow usually falls, and it is extremely hard to stop as he has stacks of 3-6 tanks in every territory in the west.

[Gargantua]

I have a friend who does this, but he purchases only tanks until after moscow falls. He doesn’t beleive in infantry and is very 1 unit minded in all the countries he plays. That being said, moscow usually falls, and it is extremely hard to stop as he has stacks of 3-6 tanks in every territory in the west.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

2 infantry >  1 tank  everytime.

Your friend is a fool.  You should crush him!

[A Former User]

Infantry buys are good for the beginning but by the end you will defiantly need to pack more of a punch. Building infantry later on is foolish because it will take them forever to get to the front. Therefore they are to be built in the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

[jim010]

If you are planning on being in Moscow by turn 7, then you are buying mobile units from turn 2 on.  Nothing else will make it.  A turn 6 hit means nothing but mec and tanks.

Buy tac and bmbs the turn before you hit, so your final buy will also be used in the attack.

[Noll]

I like going barbarossa with Germany, although I don’t rush things.

I usually always buy 1cv 2trn G1 anyway, because I like to punish UK and go SeaLion in the event that they crush the Italian Fleet in the Medi

[Young Grasshopper]

@jim010:

Without having the map in front of me, can you even take any russian zones and keep them, or will Russia boot you out on R1?  If so, then why bother attacking G1?

I wouldn’t plan on holding the Russian territories I take G1, it would be to take out some vulnerable units that can’t be pulled back for a stronger defense later, also, if Russia does take them back, they will be coming towards German aggression while already thin. Is this still a bad idea?

[jim010]

To take all 3 front zones and Yugoslavia, you would need to spread out pretty thin, and expose tanks.

Up to you, but I don’t see a point.  You would not get to Moscow any sooner than if you started G2.  Only other option I see is to stack heavy in Epl and ignore the other zones, including Yugo.

[Spendo02]

Against a competent player, do you think going after Russia on G1 will actually draw their stack of Inf forward from Leningrad??

Thats the only reason why it may be reasonable to attack so early because 11 Inf with your air force flying over the top should flatten that stack if it moved into the Baltic in a counter on R1.

[Young Grasshopper]

@jim010:

To take all 3 front zones and Yugoslavia, you would need to spread out pretty thin, and expose tanks.

Up to you, but I don’t see a point.  You would not get to Moscow any sooner than if you started G2.  Only other option I see is to stack heavy in Epl and ignore the other zones, including Yugo.

Yes, I would ignore Yugoslavia and leave it for Italy, but walk on Bugaria for the free 4 infantry during G1.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Spendo02:

Against a competent player, do you think going after Russia on G1 will actually draw their stack of Inf forward from Leningrad??

Thats the only reason why it may be reasonable to attack so early because 11 Inf with your air force flying over the top should flatten that stack if it moved into the Baltic in a counter on R1.

I’m not sure what a competent player would do, because our groups have never experienced a G1 attack on Russia. I’m saying that with the setup changes suggested on HGD for play test, a G1 Russia attack is an arguable strategy.

[jim010]

My response would depend on what you had in those front zones.  Obviously Germany can smash whatever you put there, but I would take those spaces back light and stack heavy in Bel and Nuk.  If there were tanks I could hit, I’d hit those.

Hard to say exactly without knowing what there was on the board.