Setup changes

[Guest]

The big news today is that some new changes to the setup of alpha +3 are being considered.

Over at the harris site:
http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7989&start=80

Here is a quote from Krieghund:

I think the smaller the changes are, the better off we’ll be. At this point, let’s work with simply moving the French cruiser in 112 to 110, moving the UK cruiser in 112 to 111, and changing the UK destroyer in 106 to a cruiser.

If everyone concentrates on this setup, we should be able to see if it will work. If G1 Sea Lion is still too easy, we can consider adding an infantry or two to United Kingdom or moving the German transport to 114.

Once G1 is sorted out, we can move on to G3 and see what the impact of this is on it.

Thanks again for your input!

He also said:
“It’s not official yet. I want more feedback on it, including on how it affects a G3 Sea Lion.”

I made up a map with these setup changes for everyone to look at and try out.
AaA1940global_alpha3_Jan10setup.AAM

[lexgreat]

Thx Vance for the effort.

Without a really close look: I dont care too much about actually taking London, but Germany must have a decent chance to eliminate most allied navy around UK (and Canada).

Making sea lion much harder AND letting Germany lose too much against the allied ships / scramblers (SZ 110 could defend with 4@4, 1@3, 1@2, and then you have 4, 4, 3, 2 off Scotland + SZ 109 with the TT and SZ 106 as well) is really not acceptable.

Destroyers everyhwhere other than Canada doesnt give the Subs much of a chance to do some damage (not that you have enough subs for the battle ship groups left if you go for the transport groups).

[ghr2]

At first, I was like “why would u leave 112 empty for germany’s navy to hit the royal navy?”  Now I understand that if germany does that, it would divide his/her fleet, and be made easier for the UK to counter attack it later.

[Guest]

@alexgreat:

Thx Vance for the effort.

Without a really close look: I dont care too much about actually taking London, but Germany must have a decent chance to eliminate most allied navy around UK (and Canada).

Making sea lion much harder AND letting Germany lose too much against the allied ships / scramblers (SZ 110 could defend with 4@4, 1@3, 1@2, and then you have 4, 4, 3, 2 off Scotland + SZ 109 with the TT and SZ 106 as well) is really not acceptable.

Destroyers everyhwhere other than Canada doesnt give the Subs much of a chance to do some damage (not that you have enough subs for the battle ship groups left if you go for the transport groups).

That’s why they want help testing:)

[knp7765]

For one thing, this actually opens up the possibility, however slight, of a G1 Sealion – which was prevented by the Allied ships in SZ 112.  Theoretically, Germany could load up that 1 transport they start with, send their BB, CA and as many subs that can reach SZ 110, plus some of the Luftwaffe to fight UK’s BB & CA and the French CA plus any fighters UK/France might scramble.

ALL other German planes along with the inf/art on the transport attack London., which starts out with 2 UK inf, 1 French inf, 2 UK fightrs, 1 French fighter and 4 AA Guns.  Against this would be 1 inf, 1 art, 4 fighters, 4 tacs and 2 strat bombers.  I’m not saying that it WOULD work, I’m just saying it’s a possibility now where before a G1 Sealion wasn’t even possible.  There should probably be Allied ships in SZ 112.

Also, changing the DD in SZ 106 to a CA might make it a little easier for Germany.  Subs can “surprise strike” cruisers where they can’t destroyers.

[Cow]

Finally some changes… except people already just shove a tank in UK, pick a side and play things out (equiv of 1 or 2 inf)

I find it interesting that both naval pieces blocking the battleship and cruiser are moved… the battleship and cruiser are not blocked from battling in the other zones. So yeah…

Why not just move the french or uk cruiser back and leave the other there?

I agree with minor changes:

I am going to go with UK cruiser from z112 to z109. +1 armor UK. Germany will still be able to take UK, but with a few more losses which is all the Ruskies need to put up a fight in that event. Cruiser in 109 reduce the # of german subs post G1 enabling a couple more UK inf. Germany will have about 50-70% on UK on average.
~
Also I find it interesting that germany could potentially capture on the first round now. In fact germany has strongly favorable odds…

The transport needs to be blocked in sz 112. so yeah

Do this instead guys and trust me it makes a huge difference in the big picture, even if germany takes UK the loss of 5 extra guys usually some tanks is HUGE for russia’s cause.
~
+1 armor to UK. Move UK cruiser from SZ 112 to SZ 109.

Trust me. Also the impact of this change is very minimal to Germany going for Russia.

[Spendo02]

I rolled SZ110 5 times with the following:

Allies:
2 Cru
1 BB
3 Ftr Scramble

Germany:
2 Subs (SZ103 and SZ108)
1 Cru (SZ113)
1 BB (SZ113)
3 Ftr (1 Holland, 2 W.Germany)
3 TacB (3 W.Germany)

First Result:
Round 1: All Allied units destroyed, Germany lost 2 subs and had a Damaged BB

Second Result:
Round 1: Allies lost 2 Cru, 1 BB, 1 Ftr (Fr), Germany lost 2 Subs, 1 Cru, 1 BB and 1 TacB
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Third Result:
Round 1: Allies lost all 3 ships, all Ftr remaining.  Germany lost 1 Sub, had a damaged BB.
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Fourth Result:
Round 1: Allies lost all ships, 2 Ftr remaining.  Germany lost 2 Subs, 1 Cruiser, had a damaged BB
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Fifth Result:
Round 1: Allies lost all ships, all Ftr remaining.  Germany lost 1 Sub, 1 Cru and had a damaged BB.
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

So in 5 rounds it looks like Germany sinks the Allied fleet in SZ110 and only once lost any aircraft.  I would say its a safe guess that the Germans end the battle with either a Sub or Cru (your choice) and a damaged BB.

Now with those units all used up, I looked at SZ111:

Allies:
1 DD
1 Cru
1 BB
1 Ftr Scramble

Germany:
2 Subs (SZ124 and SZ118)
1 Ftr (Norway)
1 TacB (Germany - Land on AC)
2 Bomber (Germany)

First Result:
Round 1: All allied ships sunk, 1 Ftr remains.  Germany lost 2 Subs.
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Second Result:
Round 1: All allied units destroyed.  Germany lost 2 Subs, 1 TacB
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Third Result:
Round 1: All allied ships sunk, 1 Ftr remains.  Germany lost 2 Subs.
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Fourth Result:
Round 1: All allied ships sunk, 1 Ftr remains.  Germany lost 1 Sub
Round 2: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

Fifth Result:
Round 1: Allies lost 1 DD, 1 Cru.  Damaged BB, 1 Ftr remains.  Germany lost 2 Subs, 1 TacB.
Round 2: Allies lost 1 BB.  Germany lost 1 Ftr, 1 Bomber.
Round 3: Chose to withdraw w/ Germany because fleet was sunk

It looks slightly dicier for the Germans to lose an aircraft or two from this battle.  I think it looks like its possible that Germany sends the Cru to 111 instead of 110.  It basically gives each battle for Germany 3 hits to take before it starts losing any aircraft.

I didn’t roll the SZ106 change at all because its realistically not much of a change - it went from 40-40-20 odds to 50-50.  I think thats a bit of a detractor for the Allies in regards to the battle as you don’t get a retaliation strike this way.  However, its a bit of a boost to have 2 Cru moving to SZ109 to join with the DD instead of 2 DD and 1 Cru.

Now the question remains:  How important was the BB and Cru to the German Sealion? because that seems to be the only change from moving the ships around.

[Spendo02]

I’m not sure why some of my posts get flagged as spam… anyways…

Don’t change the DD for a Cru in SZ106.  Instead move the Cru from SZ91 to SZ106.

Makes Germany decide to either cut the supply lines for the UK from Canada or take out the fleets in SZ110 and SZ111.

Oh, and if Germany goes after SZ’s 110 and 111 with the subs, it doesn’t change much as Germany can still protect its air power and take out the Allied fleets there by taking subs and the Cru/DD as casualties before losing any air power.

I think removing 1 Ftr 1 TacB from W. Germany is the fix instead of relocating the Allied fleets.

[ghr2]

@knp7765:

For one thing, this actually opens up the possibility, however slight, of a G1 Sealion – which was prevented by the Allied ships in SZ 112.  Theoretically, Germany could load up that 1 transport they start with, send their BB, CA and as many subs that can reach SZ 110, plus some of the Luftwaffe to fight UK’s BB & CA and the French CA plus any fighters UK/France might scramble.

ALL other German planes along with the inf/art on the transport attack London., which starts out with 2 UK inf, 1 French inf, 2 UK fightrs, 1 French fighter and 4 AA Guns.  Against this would be 1 inf, 1 art, 4 fighters, 4 tacs and 2 strat bombers.  I’m not saying that it WOULD work, I’m just saying it’s a possibility now where before a G1 Sealion wasn’t even possible.  There should probably be Allied ships in SZ 112.

Also, changing the DD in SZ 106 to a CA might make it a little easier for Germany.  Subs can “surprise strike” cruisers where they can’t destroyers.

But this will have serious repercussions beign that UK can easily counter atack, russia and US in the war, and germany losing alot of planes in the rush battle.

[JamesG]

FYI - Krieghund has already moved the German TRN to SZ114 so a G1 sealion is now out.

[Guest]

Nice!!

AaA1940global_alpha3_Jan11setup.AAM

[Spendo02]

Didn’t see much of a difference for the G3 Sealion other than possibly being short the German BB and Cru due to a UK counter on UK1

That doesn’t change much for G3 sealion as the Trn and AC are still under cover of a scramble.

Only real thing I see is a bit more potential for the combined allied strikes post Sealion to have a better chance of taking out the Trn in SZ110.

[Young Grasshopper]

It’s a fine line between sealion becoming more difficult, and impossible. I think a sea lion option promotes fun instead of always running for Moscow. My opinion is, leave everything as it is, and just put back the Alpha+2 UK units in the French territories, but it seems that stranger tides are looming.

[Guest]

BTW if anyone is using the map I posted here, check the Italian setup - i missed the tank in Albania and the transport in the Adriatic.  sorry about that

[suprise attack]

At this point will they ever get it right or just new gobly guk the +2 is a good challenge

[Red Harvest]

@Spendo02:

I’m not sure why some of my posts get flagged as spam… anyways…

I don’t know, I’ve had the same ANNOYING problem.  There is some way over active bot/filter in these forums.  Gives some BS message about how it will have to be cleared by a moderator, but never is.  However, I’ve discovered you can see the missing posts if you reply to something in the thread–they show up in the topic summary.

It would be nice if they are going to call someone a spammer if they explained why so that we could alter the posting style.  Calling someone a spammer is fighting words…just pisses us off for no reason.

[TheOne]

My thought was to take the UK cruiser from SZ112 and put it in SZ110, move the transport from SZ109 to SZ91, and add 1 inf to Gibraltar or move the Algerian french unit over 1.

It forces the Germans to attack SZ110 on G1 or this happens.

The Brits move Egypt navy with inf and arm to SZ92, SZ110 goes to SZ104 to block.

It forces te Germans to attack SZ104 on G2 or this happens.

UK moves SZ91 and SZ92 to SZ109 (a German block on G2 in SZ104 would be taken out by RAF and everything NCMs) adding 3 inf and an armor to the UK on UK2.

If the Germans take their subs from SZ109 to attack the block in SZ104 on G2 that adds more ipcs for the UK to spend.

It also leaves the uK navy to worry about after the Germans take London. It makes it easier for te allies to kill the German fleet after the fall of London.

It still leaves German the option for sealion but reduces the odds slightly.
It doesn’t pose any real threat to Italy.
It gives the UK some more options of play

The UK could take brazil, Persia, and Iraq to gain more ipcs to put in London too.

[TheOne]

All said above can be stopped by Germany but at the loss of a few planes which also lowers the % of taking London. So I don’t see it making London too strong too early

[Cow]

sea lion is just a little too overwhelming right now. I still believe adding a tank to UK is going to have to happen. Is london still going to fall? yeah, but that is a few more losses for germany.

Pushing a cruiser back to 109 and leaving the french cruiser as is, causes some problems, but nothing too drastic.

You guys should go with my version, because it is only 2 changes to achieve the same results. A few more losses taking london.

Now if you want to make germany taking london more of a 50/50 kind of deal we’re looking at adding 2 inf and an armor to UK on top of proposed changes. I feel that in the big picture. +12 uk is better for axis than -12 or even -10 germany because if Germany does not pursue london the +12 from UK takes a long time to mobilize and get off the island and german air has a double threat (sink naval or take back territories). So UK is going to have to no matter what invest in a cruiser to deal with the strong luffwaffe.

With that being said. listen. if you don’t give allies a bid- you should. If you don’t like the system and want something static.

do the proposed changes but add +2 inf and 1 tank to london. your sh*t will still get conquered, but you will waste a ton of germans in the process. Which honestly lets russia trade blows with germany and makes the game pretty close and even.

[wheatbeer]

Hey Vance,

Your maps still contains a number of other errors (mostly carried over from the original A3 module which TMTM has since updated).

Errors:
Japanese starting IPC should be 26 not 30
missing airbase and naval base on SITA
missing mech on EGY
1 extra Soviet infantry on NOV, 1 Soviet infantry missing from ARCH
1 ANZAC fig on NSW instead of QUE
1 neutral infantry on Chile instead of 2
2 neutral infantry on Argentina instead of 4
1 neutral infantry on Angola instead of 2
1 neutral infantry on Mozambique instead of 2
1 neutral infantry on Peru instead of 0
6 pro-allied neutral infantry on YUGO instead of 5