What’s your thoughts?
It would have been uglier, but the marines would have stuck in there, with “die in place” orders.
It would have been uglier, but the marines would have stuck in there, with “die in place” orders.
Stay in place and kill japs orders!
I never hear of that before. Good to be here. And I guess they have to stay on course.
The United States would have abandoned Guadalcanal… Even before this Dug-out Doug was calling for the evacuation of the operation. There is more behind the story, but it took the insistence of FDR that the operation continued and was given all support available at the time (against the advice of his Naval and Military Commanders)
The United States would have abandoned Guadalcanal… Even before this Dug-out Doug was calling for the evacuation of the operation. There is more behind the story, but it took the insistence of FDR that the operation continued and was given all support available at the time (against the advice of his Naval and Military Commanders)
Oh ye of such little faith in the Marines! Whats this Dug-out Doug stuff all about?
The United States would have abandoned Guadalcanal… Even before this Dug-out Doug was calling for the evacuation of the operation. There is more behind the story, but it took the insistence of FDR that the operation continued and was given all support available at the time (against the advice of his Naval and Military Commanders)
Oh ye of such little faith in the Marines! Whats this Dug-out Doug stuff all about?
It’s not about the performance of the marines, it was about the weak allied position at the time. Lack of supplies, troops and the ability to move them. Remember the US was still falling back all across the Pacific at this period.
“dug-out Doug” refers to MacCarther. Guadalcanal fell within his area of operation, but was a Navy operation. For his own reasons, he was pressing for an abandonment of the campaign… Especially after the initial difficulties and naval losses.
Even Gen Marshall sided with him and wanted to pull the marines out, but was overridden by FDR.
At this stage of the war Guadalcanal was a “close run thing” - Admiral King
“aggressive attack on the Allied supply ships off Guadalcanal, how would the following weeks played out?”
This was the question:
The destruction of these supply ships would have hampered the US ability to continue and supply the operation. No doubt, the Marines would have fought to the death, but their commanders in Washington and Brisbane would have pulled them out to avoid another loss and Propoganda victory for the Japanese.
As far as the Marines being “pulled out” of Guadalcanal I think I should point out that the Comanding General of the 1st Marine Division, A. A. Vandegrift, in his autobiography “Once a Marine” states that he instructed his Operations Officer to make a plan for “fighting in the hills” (guerilla warfare). This is verified by his Operations Officer’s book “No bended knee, the battle for Guadalcanal” by Gen. Merrill B. Twining. Twining states that Vandegrift was at his lowest ebb in fatigue when he ordered him to make this plan and this probably had some impact on his judgement.
Personally, I believe that once the Marines were committed to this first ever offensive operation in WW2 that the U.S. would find the ways to support it, as we have seen from FDR’s commitment that turned the tide for the Marines, including support from the U.S. Army’s Americal Division. The Americal Division’s CG, Maj. Gen. Alexander M. Patch, originally sent a message to Gen. Vandegrift stating that “my division will be unable to participate in the upcoming operation because we have not yet had any training in amphibious warfare”. Vandegrift wrote that “From the beginning it had been clear that the Army strongly opposed the plan”.
I have read probably close to a hundred books associated with the Guadalcanal operations, from several different aspects. I think that once Admiral King had pressured the Joint Chiefs of Staff to go ahead with the invasion that several American commanders like Adm. John McCain as ComAirSoPac, realized that “Cactus(Guadalcanal) can be a sinkhole for enemy air power” as stated in the book “A Leader Born” by Alton Gilbert.
Tall Paul
@Tall:
As far as the Marines being “pulled out” of Guadalcanal I think I should point out that the Comanding General of the 1st Marine Division, A. A. Vandegrift, in his autobiography “Once a Marine” states that he instructed his Operations Officer to make a plan for “fighting in the hills” (guerilla warfare). This is verified by his Operations Officer’s book “No bended knee, the battle for Guadalcanal” by Gen. Merrill B. Twining. Twining states that Vandegrift was at his lowest ebb in fatigue when he ordered him to make this plan and this probably had some impact on his judgement.
Personally, I believe that once the Marines were committed to this first ever offensive operation in WW2 that the U.S. would find the ways to support it, as we have seen from FDR’s commitment that turned the tide for the Marines, including support from the U.S. Army’s Americal Division. The Americal Division’s CG, Maj. Gen. Alexander M. Patch, originally sent a message to Gen. Vandegrift stating that “my division will be unable to participate in the upcoming operation because we have not yet had any training in amphibious warfare”. Vandegrift wrote that “From the beginning it had been clear that the Army strongly opposed the plan”.I have read probably close to a hundred books associated with the Guadalcanal operations, from several different aspects. I think that once Admiral King had pressured the Joint Chiefs of Staff to go ahead with the invasion that several American commanders like Adm. John McCain as ComAirSoPac, realized that “Cactus(Guadalcanal) can be a sinkhole for enemy air power” as stated in the book “A Leader Born” by Alton Gilbert.
Tall Paul
Yes I agree with all this. This is all very historical.
I completely agree also, however the question was what “would have happened” if the Japanese had pressed the attack after Savo Island. If the American Transport fleet was destroyed it would have put the operation on a completely different footing.
Well, the Japanese would have undoubtably sunk a large percentage of the transports, escorts, and support ships. This would have made it even more dificult for the Marines(if that’s possible) and potentially lengthened the campaign , but not necessarily so.
With FDR already showing his tendencies to alter policy decisions, and then with orders from him as Commander in Chief to find all supply/equipment necessary to support the Guadalcanal operation, my opinion is it would have turned out much as it actually did.
Don’t forget that Adm. King had already won an enlargement of the total available forces able to be diverted from the Europe 1st policy.
FDR as you well know was a “Navy” man. His political power and Navy interest is what brought about the creation of the Marine Raider Battalions, Marine Parachute Battalions, and other pro-Navy units.
Not to “oversimplify” things, or my reasoning behind my thoughts, but I think this wouldn’t necesarily have had a major impact on the Final Outcome of the campaign. I respect anyone having a diferring opinion, especially if it is an educated one that knows his history and understands it. “Tall Paul”
@Tall-Paul Just how many books?
