Alright so I attack a territory that has a factory and an AA gun, that is defended by 3 fighters, and I send 2 of my bombers and 2 fighters. I probably wouldn’t actually do this in a game, but work with me here…
In what order do these things happen? Or do not happen at all?
A: AA-Gun fires at all enemy Units? (Maybe this is only for combat as in attacking the territory for conquest?)
-Hits are preemptive and eliminate units from play immediately
B: Fighters Roll to attack Interceptors?
-Hits are not preemptive
C: Interceptors Roll Defense?
-Hits are not preemptive, Unless more hits are scored on me then I have fighters, and I lose a bomber? LOL OMG Brutal Confusion
D: Facilities shoot at Bombers? - Does the facility shoot at surviving fighters too? It would be very retarded if neither the facility the AA-gun Shot at fighter escorts during an SBR…
-Hits are preemptive and eliminate units from play immediately
E: Bombers Roll for Strategic Damage.
This leaves us with ALOT of Questions, even leaving the Preemptive/Not Preemptive things aside. If you have an AAG and a Facility, is that 2 aa shots at all enemy units? Or maybe the AAG only shoots at the fighters, and the Facilities shoot at the Bombers? Or maybe Fighter Escorts NEVER suffer AA Fire?
There are some SERIOUS holes in the plot here…
Okay, first of all, the AA gun shoots only planes attacking the territory itself. The IC AA gun only shoots bombers bombing an IC or base(not any escorts). You pick whether to resolve the territory attack or bombing raid first. For bombing raid, order is:
1. AA shoots at bombers, which die without firing back at the IC
2. interceptors defend at 2, killing planes(which can be the bombers or the escorts)
3. escorts roll attack at 1. 2 and 3 may be switched, I’m not sure.
4. Bombers roll to damage the IC
The order is D, B/C, E
So Fighters Escorts NEVER suffer AA Fire. Interesting… Super Lame. But Interesting…
I think 2 and 3 should be switched, attacking Fighters FIRST then Interceptors after. To avoid the arguement that Interceptors are preemptive - which they are not.
Also, the Facilities Rule should be Corrected. It should be that the Facility fires at ALL attacking Air Units Bombers and Fighter Escorts (Roll Seperately) Then proceed with steps B,C,E.
Thanks Cal.
So Fighters Escorts NEVER suffer AA Fire. Interesting… Super Lame. But Interesting…
I think 2 and 3 should be switched, attacking Fighters FIRST then Interceptors after. To avoid the arguement that Interceptors are preemptive - which they are not.
Also, the Facilities Rule should be Corrected. It should be that the Facility fires at ALL attacking Air Units Bombers and Fighter Escorts (Roll Seperately) Then proceed with steps B,C,E.
Thanks Cal.
Consider it that the fighter escorts would have peeled away before they get to the actual facility (lack of range and/or their job of defending the bombers against interceptors is already acomplished so no need to risk going down from AA gun fire as well).
Thinking of it like that makes sense to me. Interceptors would be intercepting as far AWAY from the facility as they possibly can, while the AA gun is fixed AT the facility.
So Fighters Escorts NEVER suffer AA Fire. Interesting… Super Lame. But Interesting…
I think 2 and 3 should be switched, attacking Fighters FIRST then Interceptors after. To avoid the arguement that Interceptors are preemptive - which they are not.
Also, the Facilities Rule should be Corrected. It should be that the Facility fires at ALL attacking Air Units Bombers and Fighter Escorts (Roll Seperately) Then proceed with steps B,C,E.
Thanks Cal.
Let me check the rulebook……
Escorts fire before interceptors, consistent with the rule that attackers fire before defenders.
Also, Facility AA fires AFTER the dogfight, so it only fires at the bombers. Thus, the order is B, C, D, E
I think the theory is that the fighters don’t actually enter the airspace around the factory, so AA guns at/around the factories wouldn’t actually engage them.
Damnit Rorschach, I like the way you think :)
Consider it that the fighter escorts would have peeled away before they get to the actual facility (lack of range and/or their job of defending the bombers against interceptors is already acomplished so no need to risk going down from AA gun fire as well).
Thinking of it like that makes sense to me. Interceptors would be intercepting as far AWAY from the facility as they possibly can, while the AA gun is fixed AT the facility.
Not to mention that AA flak is rather indiscriminate. If it were firing on the escort, it would be firing on the interceptors as well, and the dogfight would be occuring in the thick of the flak. And that’s not what the defender would want to do (and it would suck in the game cause the defender might lose more than the attacker due to friendly fire). Especially since it’s the escorts duty to peel the interceptors away from the bombers and NOT keep the dogfight in the same area.
Italy shot down and killed one of their only hero’s in the war.
AA friendly fire :)
Italy shot down and killed one of their only hero’s in the war.
AA friendly fire :)
friendly fire, or foul play…
Italy shot down and killed one of their only hero’s in the war.
AA friendly fire :)
Who was that?
Italy shot down and killed one of their only hero’s in the war.
AA friendly fire :)
I’m not saying it didn’t happen historically, but it’s such a small percentage that it shouldn’t apply to an entire wing of defending planes.
I see Calvin like to give out a lot of wrong information before looking at a rulebook.
@calvinhobbesliker:
… You pick whether to resolve the territory attack or bombing raid first…
AAE40 rulebook>page16>Combat Sequence>
1. Strategic Bombing raids
2. Amphibious assaults
3. General combat
Notice that if one were to do a SBR AND try and take (or strafe) a territory, that the SBR happens first; while the territory is not yours. (Before the “why would you do that” clown peep up, most people would not. However, well-written rules allow for stupid play.)
Later Calvin shows that the AAG fires after the dogfight.
(AAE40 Rulebook>page 16>Strategic Bombing Raids)
Gargantua, in your example at the beginning…
You declare a SBR (I assume that you did not attack the territory with other units, just doing a SBR.)
Gargantua states “2 bombers and 2 fighter escorts” (You do NOT state the targets at this time i.e., Minor IC, Naval Base, Air Base.)
After combat movement, but before Conduct Combat the defending interceptors states how many interceptors (in this case 0-3 fighters) are committed to the SBR dogfight.
Let’s say the defender Bob says “3 interceptors”.
Gargantua rolls for his escorts 2@1 (1,6) 1 hit!
Bob rolls for his interceptors 3@2 (5,1,2) 2 hits!
Gargantua mumbles @$$*%/{
Bob removes 1 fighter.
Gargantua decides what to take casualties.(Clowns may peep again here saying “the only strategic choice is to take the 2 fighters”)
However many other things may change that decision. May he Gargantua needs one of those fighters for his Carrier, or other reasons may have him take 1fighter and 1bomber as casualties.
Gargantua removes 2 fighters.
NOW Gargantua decides what to SBR with his 2 remaining bombers. “1 to Minor IC, 1 to Naval Base”, he says.
AAG fire is rolled separately for each group of bombers (any surviving escorts are not fired apon, they await noncombat movement), in this case 2 groups and only 1 bomber in each group.
Bob rolls 1@1 (1) for the Minor IC 1 hit! (more %@&%) EDIT: the hit was supposed to go here
Bob rolls 1@1 (5) for the Naval Base
Gargantua removes 1 bomber SBRing the Minor IC
Gargantua roll 1@6 (4) for the damage on the Naval Base, places 4 chips under the Naval Base and the Naval Base doesn’t work until it is repaired.
1. attacker make combat moves
2. defender commits some or zero interceptors
3. escorts roll
4. interceptors roll
5. remove casualties
6. declare targets
7. roll facilities built-in AA gun at bombers only
8. remove casualties
9. roll for damage
10. apply damage chips
(Gargantua, mad at the dice: eyes up the Low Luck rules.)
Nice break-down Bad Spell. ;)
Especially the part where the Naval Base takes 4 damage instead of the factory :) I like it.
Nice break-down Bad Spell. ;)
Especially the part where the Naval Base takes 4 damage instead of the factory :) I like it.
Opps I mixed up the bases!
The AAG hit was suppose to go to the bomber going after the MinorIC, a typo.
EDIT: I fixed my other post
Consider it that the fighter escorts would have peeled away before they get to the actual facility (lack of range and/or their job of defending the bombers against interceptors is already acomplished so no need to risk going down from AA gun fire as well).
Thinking of it like that makes sense to me. Interceptors would be intercepting as far AWAY from the facility as they possibly can, while the AA gun is fixed AT the facility.
Not to mention that AA flak is rather indiscriminate. If it were firing on the escort, it would be firing on the interceptors as well, and the dogfight would be occuring in the thick of the flak. And that’s not what the defender would want to do (and it would suck in the game cause the defender might lose more than the attacker due to friendly fire). Especially since it’s the escorts duty to peel the interceptors away from the bombers and NOT keep the dogfight in the same area.
Yes, I was going to go into a much more detailed explanation including all this but time was a restraint (I was at work when I made that reply).
Really, it just makes sense if you think about it. :)
If your (fixed position) AA guns are firing into the skies, it’s too late to scramble interceptors as this means the bombers are already over their targets AND you’d hit your own interceptors just as often as you’d hit the enemy bombers. Escorting fighters would have turned back before entering AA gun range so as to mitigate losses (once the bombers are over their target, no need to risk losing extra fighters that aren’t going to help out in the raid)! AND, once the bombers are dropping their payload, what’s the point of intercepting them anyway as the damage is already done!
