@Panther Thanks Panther for this edit and clarification!
Matt
Getting attacked inside the Denmark Straight from Norway
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@ calvin
I hear you on that, and for my Germany a sub a turn has pretty much become textbook. But are you holding out in Europe as Germany/Italy and waiting for Japan to do the dirty work with Russia? 30% of US spending in the Pacific plus some effective China/India/Australia play can make that take quite a while, longer than I think you can reasonably expect the Axis to hold on to all the VC’s in Europe. Not to mention the US can place all its first 3 turns of spending in the Pacific before building a naval base in the Carribean and zooming its Pacific fleet over to Gibraltar in 2 turns of movement, setting up for a turn 5 or 6 threat while slowing Japan’s early game even more as they can’t just ignore the US fleet sitting within striking distance of Japan.You strike me as one of the more skilled players on these forums. I’d love to hear some general strategies as to how you balance all these priorities as the Axis. I’m getting tired of investing 10-20 hrs per game to try and figure this stuff out by my lonesome.
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The key fact people are missing here is that as the Axis player you don’t have a clue where the US is going to go until 1 turn before they show up there. The US heads to Gibraltar. If you invest enough of your starting resources to create a scenario (one that won’t last beyond a couple of turns, mind you) where you can trade Norway with the US for a couple turns then the US just stomps Italy instead. You under-defend Norway then the US heads there. You (somehow) come up with the forces capable of doing both, you’re not putting any pressure on Russia and are giving them an opportunity to push deep into Europe, possibly even to Berlin. We’re at 20+ games now, 1 legit Axis win, 2 draws, 18+ allied wins. This is even with a gentleman’s agreement not to do the Taranto raid the last 5 games or so because it’s so ridiculously broken.
That’s why you build a few subs and keep bombers on West Germany. They can reach Z91 and land in Holland. The key to Germany is delay delay delay until Moscow falls
The UK could put a destroyer in sea zone 110 to block the subs then only the bombers could reach. That would not be enough to pose a threat to US fleet in sea zone 91.
@Calvin
How are you cracking Moscow and what is Russia building? I am not trying to be disrepectful but I have not been able to crack Russia and neither has Chompers. Do you wait for Japan to do it? If Russia builds nothing but inf and art they get to be to huge numbers fast especially if they conserve their starting forces by falling off the borders. I have tried to get Russia with Mechs and Tanks with Germany but the problem has been too many Russia units by the time I get there. At that point US is landing even if it has been doing Pacific Spending. I have tried to build all inf and art with Germany and march forward and that has been more effective but I still have not been able to sack the Russia capital.It seems Russia has so many points to spend and builds all cheap effective defensive units with art to give ability to counter attack and drive the Germans out when America and Brittan are landing.
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short answer? The game favors the allies. You have to spread too thin as axis to defend everything the allies can do. you have to hope that the allied players miss your weakest points.
18 russian infantry needs to be looked at. we’re toying with as a house rule putting 9 groups of 2 infantry down throughout eastern russia, a return to the old AA setups. That stack of 18 causes huge issues for the few japanese ground units there, yes they can easily be wiped out on J1, but that slows the japs down wayyy too much. Of course i’m talking OOB setup, because 1) I don’t recognize the alpha setups until there is an official rulebook reprint and 2) I don’t want to spend 1/2 my life waiting on LH’s forums.
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@ calvin
I hear you on that, and for my Germany a sub a turn has pretty much become textbook. But are you holding out in Europe as Germany/Italy and waiting for Japan to do the dirty work with Russia? 30% of US spending in the Pacific plus some effective China/India/Australia play can make that take quite a while, longer than I think you can reasonably expect the Axis to hold on to all the VC’s in Europe. Not to mention the US can place all its first 3 turns of spending in the Pacific before building a naval base in the Carribean and zooming its Pacific fleet over to Gibraltar in 2 turns of movement, setting up for a turn 5 or 6 threat while slowing Japan’s early game even more as they can’t just ignore the US fleet sitting within striking distance of Japan.You strike me as one of the more skilled players on these forums. I’d love to hear some general strategies as to how you balance all these priorities as the Axis. I’m getting tired of investing 10-20 hrs per game to try and figure this stuff out by my lonesome.
Well, I have never played axis yet(since I prefer allies), but I have observed many excellent axis strategies from my opponents. Generally, the axis wait until turn 4 to declare war on the US, unless Japan can kill most of the US fleet or something of similar value. Obviously, what each axis does depends on how the US spends its money. However, if US spends 70% in Europe(60 ipcs) and UK spends around 35, and Russia 35, that’s a total of about 130 ipcs. Italy will be making 20-25 ipcs with its NO’s(BTW, have Italy and Germany been counterattacking Z93 after a Taranto?). Germany makes about 60. The US is very helpful, but it had just a DD as an escort ship. It needs 1 transport for every 2 troops it needs to ship to Europe, while the axis can buy 4 troops for the same amount of money.
In the Pacific, Japan, in the first 3 turns, focuses on China and Russia, who retreat their 18 inf to save them from air attack. Before it declares war, Japan should be making about 40 ipcs, with FIC, 5 Russian territories, and 7 Chinese tt. However, once it declares war, much of the DEI, Malaya, Hong Kong, and Philippines will fall until it’s making about 60-65 ipcs. China is basically dead, India is down to 6 ipcs or less, and ANZAC, at best, has 15 ipcs. Even with half of the US income, Japan is still ahead in income, and it only gets worse as Japan attacks Russia from China, takes India and ANZAC tt. Tell me, what strats do your pacific allies use that stop the Japanese monster?
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Axis wins happen as follows:
Passive UK player that lets IT actually get to insane IPCs
American player who buys too many BBs and B17s
UK player that builds a navy a piece at a time
Russian player that bites off more than it can chew by buying too many tanks, or Turtles too much with a reliance on fighters.In other words, if you play against an inexperienced player, you have a shot as Axis. Otherwise, this is nothing more than a choose your own adventure book. They want you to read it, so you never really die.
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The key fact people are missing here is that as the Axis player you don’t have a clue where the US is going to go until 1 turn before they show up there. The US heads to Gibraltar. If you invest enough of your starting resources to create a scenario (one that won’t last beyond a couple of turns, mind you) where you can trade Norway with the US for a couple turns then the US just stomps Italy instead. You under-defend Norway then the US heads there. You (somehow) come up with the forces capable of doing both, you’re not putting any pressure on Russia and are giving them an opportunity to push deep into Europe, possibly even to Berlin. We’re at 20+ games now, 1 legit Axis win, 2 draws, 18+ allied wins. This is even with a gentleman’s agreement not to do the Taranto raid the last 5 games or so because it’s so ridiculously broken.
That’s why you build a few subs and keep bombers on West Germany. They can reach Z91 and land in Holland. The key to Germany is delay delay delay until Moscow falls
The UK could put a destroyer in sea zone 110 to block the subs then only the bombers could reach. That would not be enough to pose a threat to US fleet in sea zone 91.
@Calvin
How are you cracking Moscow and what is Russia building? I am not trying to be disrepectful but I have not been able to crack Russia and neither has Chompers. Do you wait for Japan to do it? If Russia builds nothing but inf and art they get to be to huge numbers fast especially if they conserve their starting forces by falling off the borders. I have tried to get Russia with Mechs and Tanks with Germany but the problem has been too many Russia units by the time I get there. At that point US is landing even if it has been doing Pacific Spending. I have tried to build all inf and art with Germany and march forward and that has been more effective but I still have not been able to sack the Russia capital.It seems Russia has so many points to spend and builds all cheap effective defensive units with art to give ability to counter attack and drive the Germans out when America and Brittan are landing.
My Russia builds mostly mechs and tanks for mobility. Inf and art are better defenders, but their lower mobility means Russia loses territory more quickly, and the game hinges on whether Germany can break the Russian stack. I have no gaming experience with only inf and art builds, but I think my points are valid.
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short answer? The game favors the allies. You have to spread too thin as axis to defend everything the allies can do. you have to hope that the allied players miss your weakest points.
18 russian infantry needs to be looked at. we’re toying with as a house rule putting 9 groups of 2 infantry down throughout eastern russia, a return to the old AA setups. That stack of 18 causes huge issues for the few japanese ground units there, yes they can easily be wiped out on J1, but that slows the japs down wayyy too much. Of course i’m talking OOB setup, because 1) I don’t recognize the alpha setups until there is an official rulebook reprint and 2) I don’t want to spend 1/2 my life waiting on LH’s forums.
short answer? The game favors the allies. You have to spread too thin as axis to defend everything the allies can do. you have to hope that the allied players miss your weakest points.
18 russian infantry needs to be looked at. we’re toying with as a house rule putting 9 groups of 2 infantry down throughout eastern russia, a return to the old AA setups. That stack of 18 causes huge issues for the few japanese ground units there, yes they can easily be wiped out on J1, but that slows the japs down wayyy too much. Of course i’m talking OOB setup, because 1) I don’t recognize the alpha setups until there is an official rulebook reprint and 2) I don’t want to spend 1/2 my life waiting on LH’s forums.
You seem to be on the same page as me on this one. I think the game favors the Allies. I like Alpha set up but I think the axis need a little more power to go with it in Europe. Maybe a bigger starting German Airforce to buy them time and force allies to build more fleet? The best I have been able to do with Axis was make it hard for the allies to win the game by building large amounts of inf and art. That being said it did not really put me into position to win the game and get the victory cities I need.
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@ Maher
I agree. You can draw the conclusion based upon our game results that Frank and I are just terrible players too unskilled to play Axis effectively. You may even be right, I dunno. But even setting skill aside, I think it’s a bit ridiculous that the Allies are sitting on close to a 90% win ratio in our games. It’s to the point where I’m afraid to involve anyone but myself on the Axis side in games with over 2 players because I’m worried they’ll make that one early mistake that’ll cost the Axis the game. Your margin of error is razor-thin, and in a couple situations early on the dice by themselves can cost you the game straight-up. Not making any mistakes over the course of a 20+ hr game can be pretty taxing on even the best of players.
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Axis wins happen as follows:
Passive UK player that lets IT actually get to insane IPCs
American player who buys too many BBs and B17s
UK player that builds a navy a piece at a time
Russian player that bites off more than it can chew by buying too many tanks, or Turtles too much with a reliance on fighters.In other words, if you play against an inexperienced player, you have a shot as Axis. Otherwise, this is nothing more than a choose your own adventure book. They want you to read it, so you never really die.
And yet Gamerman01 and Badspeller have beaten Me and SgtBlitz. I am not as good a player as gamerman01, but I think I am only slightly behind the other two. The allies certainly did not do any of those.
UK never let Italy go South of Egypt. US bought a variety of troops.
UK building navy one piece at a time? If by piece, you mean one ship per turn, no one did that. Russia bought 3 tanks and the rest mech for the early turns when the front was far away and more inf, art later turns as germany got closer to Moscow.
But of course, Maher, you probably think I’m inexperienced because I’m only 16 years old
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Frank:
We’ve played 5 full games, rotating who has what sides etc. So it’s not just a stuck in the rut way of thinking or anything. Calvin describes a very passive Russia with regard to the siberian 18.
It’s the same thinking that doomed the OOB setup for pacific. People are afraid to use planes as soakers, so there’s no way Japan will attack with 1 inf
and 2 planes….Even if I lose 18 infantry as russia (57 IPCs) what is that going to cost Japan? Time, Ground units that can’t be replaced quickly.
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@calvin
I think you are inexperience because by your own admission you have only played 1 side of the game so far.
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Frank:
We’ve played 5 full games, rotating who has what sides etc. So it’s not just a stuck in the rut way of thinking or anything. Calvin describes a very passive Russia with regard to the siberian 18.
It’s the same thinking that doomed the OOB setup for pacific. People are afraid to use planes as soakers, so there’s no way Japan will attack with 1 inf
and 2 planes….Even if I lose 18 infantry as russia (57 IPCs) what is that going to cost Japan? Time, Ground units that can’t be replaced quickly.
It usually costs Japan 6-7 inf and one turn. In return, those inf can never be used to defend China or Moscow and Japan has an empty Siberia in front of it
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@calvin
I think you are inexperience because by your own admission you have only played 1 side of the game so far.
That is a valid criticism. However, gamerman, a much better player than me, has employed excellent axis strategies. Although he agrees that the game is tilted towards the allies, I doubt he thinks it is broken.
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I really wish we could get some brainpower going to AAA so we could all play more games, faster, with different opponents. I’d love to be wrong about this, but when you look at the ticky tack BS that is building with each release of the AA franchises, I’m losing all faith in LH and co.
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I really wish we could get some brainpower going to AAA so we could all play more games, faster, with different opponents. I’d love to be wrong about this, but when you look at the ticky tack BS that is building with each release of the AA franchises, I’m losing all faith in LH and co.
Huh? We already play many games quickly with many people on the online forums
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It usually costs Japan 6-7 inf and one turn. In return, those inf can never be used to defend China or Moscow and Japan has an empty Siberia in front of it
1 Turn is QUITE a big deal IMO
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No matter how smart the 20 playtesters of WOTC are, the collective brainpower of a couple hundred players each playing an average of a few games will always trump the playtesters’ experience.
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Huh? We already play many games quickly with many people on the online forums
Well there are quite a few AA players that have wives/kids/jobs that can’t spend the time doing PBEM. in the time it takes to reset the global board, I could have played 2 turns on AAA.
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It usually costs Japan 6-7 inf and one turn. In return, those inf can never be used to defend China or Moscow and Japan has an empty Siberia in front of it
1 Turn is QUITE a big deal IMO
Not when Japan is only at war with China and Russia. And it gains many turns later in the game when Germany doesn’t have to worry about 18 inf beefing Moscow on turn 7 or 8
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No matter how smart the 20 playtesters of WOTC are, the collective brainpower of a couple hundred players each playing an average of a few games will always trump the playtesters’ experience.
exactly my point of why I wish AAA worked. to balance this game as best as possible before too many people lose interest.
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