Thanks so much for clearing that up!
Is Germany gonna be strong enough?
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I’m hoping Russia is a special case where Axis war decs on Russia WON’T trigger US war footing… There will probably be some Russian forces on the Polish border (probably not as many as Japan has (18 inf in siberia!!! hopefully more like 8-10 inf spread in Europe)) so there will be some resistance but the Reds won’t have a solid front line until Germany conquers up to the centers of production, i.e. Leningrad and Stalingrad. So in this case it might be best for Germany to gobble up as many weakly defended Russian territories as it can G1-3 to get started early, take out small Russian stacks where it can, and put Russia on the defensive overall. Even just a few small attacks from Poland with tanks and air from Germany G1 should give some kind of Russian foothold in addition to the French beat-down. The UK will have some more ships floating around, but hey, Sealion is pretty unfeasible anyway and Russia was asking for it. I’d much rather have Moscow 3-4 territories away than 6 by the time the US enters the war.
On the other hand, if attacking Russia DOES initiate US war dec with Axis, then Russia is mostly free to pull back most of those border inf and actually have a decent chance of maintaining some stacks in both theaters. I guess time will tell, when we actually get to see the board.
My experience has been every game where I didn’t keep the Axis on Russia’s throat, I generally got crushed by their massive inf stacks in counterattacks. Might as well do it early on for both Japan and Germany… I mean, most historians conclude that if Germany had attacked Russia earlier than June in 1941 they probably would have won, right? Why wait for G4 then?
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I always heard that if Hitler had waited another year or two he would have been in the clear? More man-power, Better Tanks, fighters, Jets/V2/Evil Nazi Science etc.
Just imagine the mind control units he could have LOL! Or Nukes. Damn.
Hmmph.
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I always heard that if Hitler had waited another year or two he would have been in the clear? More man-power, Better Tanks, fighters, Jets/V2/Evil Nazi Science etc.
Just imagine the mind control units he could have LOL! Or Nukes. Damn.
Hmmph.
If Russia had to contend with Japan, it would also have made Germany more successful as Russia sent its Siberian defenses to halt the Germans.
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It was a combination of strategic indecisiveness and the later invasion date and early winter (i.e. the late drive to Moscow) that doomed the Nazi invasion in 41 (it was the Nazis best chance). If Barbarossa had gone on in early April or May 1941 as planned the Germans might have gotten a lot farther. Russia would have been taken by surprise regardless since Stalin was a big unsuspecting fan of Hitler and there were no plans for defending Eastern Europe from German attack. But since in AAE40 war is auto-dec on Round 4 and the territories have little IPC numbers attached to them that you automatically collect without partisan or civilian interference, there is no real reason for dragging the conflict out.
But yeah, LOL, I know what you mean, in real life the Reds and Nazis could have formed the new Commie-Nazi empire if Hitler had just waited and not backstabbed Russia when it was convenient. Or when the battle for England started going not so well.(Hell, I think the Brits were at war with Germany for upsetting the European balance of power (that was in UK’s favor pre-1941) more than anything. A unified Europe, whether Napoleanonic or Hitleresque, was the only real threat to the Empire, and Churchill knew it. Guess Hitler didn’t care, or realized the US with Lend-Lease was just itching for a reason to enter the war.) Why oh why did Hitler bite the Russian hand that fed him in 1941? Petulance, I guess? Or I guess the whole narcissistic megalomaniac dictator thing was taking over. It was ironic that the Germans started having trouble with supply after their invasion of Russia, when before June 1941 the Russians were giving their war machine enough raw materials to last for ages.
Well, how about not starting WWII at all? If Hitler had just waited until 1945 when the German military planners said they really could roll over the world the Germans would have done better (imagine a tricked out German fleet in the Baltic, with 3-4 Bismark class battleships and aircraft carriers, with subs running amok everywhere). Would the US have really developed the A-bomb without WWII?
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It was a combination of strategic indecisiveness and the later invasion date and early winter (i.e. the late drive to Moscow) that doomed the Nazi invasion in 41 (it was the Nazis best chance). If Barbarossa had gone on in early April or May 1941 as planned the Germans might have gotten a lot farther. Russia would have been taken by surprise regardless since Stalin was a big unsuspecting fan of Hitler and there were no plans for defending Eastern Europe from German attack. But since in AAE40 war is auto-dec on Round 4 and the territories have little IPC numbers attached to them that you automatically collect without partisan or civilian interference, there is no real reason for dragging the conflict out.
But yeah, LOL, I know what you mean, in real life the Reds and Nazis could have formed the new Commie-Nazi empire if Hitler had just waited and not backstabbed Russia when it was convenient. Or when the battle for England started going not so well.(Hell, I think the Brits were at war with Germany for upsetting the European balance of power (that was in UK’s favor pre-1941) more than anything. A unified Europe, whether Napoleanonic or Hitleresque, was the only real threat to the Empire, and Churchill knew it. Guess Hitler didn’t care, or realized the US with Lend-Lease was just itching for a reason to enter the war.) Why oh why did Hitler bite the Russian hand that fed him in 1941? Petulance, I guess? Or I guess the whole narcissistic megalomaniac dictator thing was taking over. It was ironic that the Germans started having trouble with supply after their invasion of Russia, when before June 1941 the Russians were giving their war machine enough raw materials to last for ages.
Well, how about not starting WWII at all? If Hitler had just waited until 1945 when the German military planners said they really could roll over the world the Germans would have done better (imagine a tricked out German fleet in the Baltic, with 3-4 Bismark class battleships and aircraft carriers, with subs running amok everywhere). Would the US have really developed the A-bomb without WWII?
Why do peopel assume that the Allies would not have developed better techs also?
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Why do peopel assume that the Allies would not have developed better techs also?
They would have, but they would have been further behind.
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@Brain:
Why do peopel assume that the Allies would not have developed better techs also?
They would have, but they would have been further behind.
Why would the allies have been further behind? Most countries knew war was afoot, and even if the US started late, its industrial and technological might could’ve done wonders. For example, the Manhatten Project began before the US entered the war.
You imagine a German fleet with 3-4 BB’s and CV’s and lots of subs. The UK could’ve improved its sonar/radar and anti-sub warfare and they could build more ships, since they already started with an advantage. France could’ve finished extending the Maginot Line to the Channel.
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Well, if the Manhattan project was finished in peacetime, how long do you think it would have been before the other powers sniffed it out? How much worse would WWII of been had all the major powers developed nukes? Once somebody started work on these things, especially in peacetime, spies would notice that a lot of uranium mining had been going on, nuclear physicists were being hired, centrifuges were being ordered, whole cities were being built under extreme secrecy (Oak Ridge, anyone?) Eventually scientists on all sides would have figured it out, and the bomb race would be on. You’re also forgetting that the US was largely isolationist at the time, and it took the surprise attack by Japan on Pearl Harbor to wake them out of their torpor. There may not have been as much money to continue funding the a-bomb had the war not gone on as it did, and the bomb development took several times longer than the scientists thought it would, as well as being the most expensive project the US had ever undertaken.
There also would have been a lot more time to get the kinks worked out on various weapons technology. Imagine the Germans entering WWII with a mainly jet-based aircraft fleet. V2 Rocket attacks from the beginning. The list goes on.
The Maginot line extended to the Channel would still not have prevented Germany from sending tanks through the Ardennes, and still would have been easily bypassable because of fixed emplacements that were vulnerable to airstrikes and air-dropped commandos (Fort Eben-Emael). The Germans proved that mobile forces were more important in the mechanized WWII era than the WWI-style bunkers and trenches.
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However, the Stalin was in the process of rebuilding his military when Germany struck. If they did so in 1946-7, then Russia would be MUCH harder to take.
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All the WHAT IF create interesting conversations, but are all pointless because history is what it is
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All the WHAT IF create interesting conversations, but are all pointless because history is what it is
You’re right. I’m sorry for getting off topic.
Larry said that the Germans will have an uphill battle, but that the Italians will amaze you. Thus, Italy should be a significant player in this game(more so than historically). Italy should focus on taking Africa while Germany focuses on Russia. Britain should not be able to invade Europe for the first few turns since it has few land units on its island. Thus, Germany will have a free hand in Russia
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Barabrossa failed principally because the Germans massively underestimated the numbers and quality of the Soviet forces. If Hitler had been properly served by his spies in Russia he’d never have launched the attack. Instead, he could have listened to Raeder and adopted a Mediterranean strategy giving Germany adequate oil reserves in the middle east, and a base much closer to the Caucasus oil fields when the invasion of Russia eventually did come. This could then have been co-ordinated with Japanese strategy to give a much stronger invasion plan, and against a Soviet force which would not likely be much stronger a year on.
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Barabrossa failed principally because the Germans massively underestimated the numbers and quality of the Soviet forces. If Hitler had been properly served by his spies in Russia he’d never have launched the attack. Instead, he could have listened to Raeder and adopted a Mediterranean strategy giving Germany adequate oil reserves in the middle east, and a base much closer to the Caucasus oil fields when the invasion of Russia eventually did come. This could then have been co-ordinated with Japanese strategy to give a much stronger invasion plan, and against a Soviet force which would not likely be much stronger a year on.
Which is exactly the strategy that A&A has allowed us to use for the Axis in the past, and is supposed to be better developed in this version with the expanded Middle East and new political rules.
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If they made Japan strong enough to win the Pacific game, they will probably make Germany strong enough to win the Europe game.
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Well, let’s just hope that unlike Japan, Germany is not more than strong enough to win the game. :wink:
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Idk…The war was pretty close. Germany could have won. IF not for a ton of mistakes in Russia, and a botched Afrika campaign
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Not a chance, the Axis had to small a poplulation/resources/industry to keep up with Allies/Russia. It was Russia’s own mistakes that let the Germans get as far as they did. France’s decision not to invade while the bulk of the German army was in Poland was a huge mistake. When Japan attacked the U.S./U.K. they did so becuase they only had enough oil for six months of warfare left not becuase they thought they could win! but becuase they thought they could “shock and awe them”. Germany’s oil supply for the invasion of Russia allowed for no mistakes of which they made plenty, just like their Africa campaign where their oil supply could be measured in days. Then there is Italy the “paper tiger” of the mediteranean talk about an unorganized, unsupplied, poorly led mob who crumbled at every serious encounter!! What chance did they have? America alone out produced all of the Axis nations singlehanded. Now consider the U.K., Russia, the Commonwealth nations, the chinese rabble, plus countless smaller nations that threw in what they had and you have an unwinnable scenerio.
That is why A&A has to be so unbalanced of a game in order to make it a “game” that is playable. Who would play monopoly if one player started with two monopolies, or risk if one guy always started with Australia. The answer of course is nobody or at best only those who wanted a challenge. I love a good challenge and would enjoy trying a true historical setup/ruleset, but that would get boring eventually. Don’t believe me though read a book or two that actually looks at the logistics of the war not a history channel “what if” show that loves make people think they had a chance.
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Yup, in the name of “balance” this game will probably have germany (and italy) overpowered at the start, at least from what forces/chances they had historically. Agreed, the Allies essentially “let” them win most of their major victories in 1939-41, and it was sheer luck or chutzpah that allowed them to take over as much as they did: either by Britain’s “Peace-in-our-time” appeaser Chamberlain, to France’s defensive stance throughout '39 and failure to defend southward in the Ardennes, to Stalin’s “Hitler-is-my-friend-non-aggression-pact” backstab opening in '41.
The Germans did have the Dieppe oilfields of Romania, but the constant day/night bombing raids of the RAF and USAF ensured that that oil supply would be one of the critical issues effecting German production and war material output, especially later in the war. Once Germany cut its cords with the Soviet Union and stopped receiving shipments of food and oil, they started gambling over their heads.
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It was a combination of strategic indecisiveness and the later invasion date and early winter (i.e. the late drive to Moscow) that doomed the Nazi invasion in 41 (it was the Nazis best chance). If Barbarossa had gone on in early April or May 1941 as planned the Germans might have gotten a lot farther. Russia would have been taken by surprise regardless since Stalin was a big unsuspecting fan of Hitler and there were no plans for defending Eastern Europe from German attack. But since in AAE40 war is auto-dec on Round 4 and the territories have little IPC numbers attached to them that you automatically collect without partisan or civilian interference, there is no real reason for dragging the conflict out.
But yeah, LOL, I know what you mean, in real life the Reds and Nazis could have formed the new Commie-Nazi empire if Hitler had just waited and not backstabbed Russia when it was convenient. Or when the battle for England started going not so well.(Hell, I think the Brits were at war with Germany for upsetting the European balance of power (that was in UK’s favor pre-1941) more than anything. A unified Europe, whether Napoleanonic or Hitleresque, was the only real threat to the Empire, and Churchill knew it. Guess Hitler didn’t care, or realized the US with Lend-Lease was just itching for a reason to enter the war.) Why oh why did Hitler bite the Russian hand that fed him in 1941? Petulance, I guess? Or I guess the whole narcissistic megalomaniac dictator thing was taking over. It was ironic that the Germans started having trouble with supply after their invasion of Russia, when before June 1941 the Russians were giving their war machine enough raw materials to last for ages.
Well, how about not starting WWII at all? If Hitler had just waited until 1945 when the German military planners said they really could roll over the world the Germans would have done better (imagine a tricked out German fleet in the Baltic, with 3-4 Bismark class battleships and aircraft carriers, with subs running amok everywhere). Would the US have really developed the A-bomb without WWII?
In 1939, Germany was a relatively small nation that had access to comparatively few natural resources. Britain and France were, combined, spending significantly more on the military than Germany was. The fact that Germany was falling behind, in terms of the military situation, was one reason why Hitler decided to launch the war in '39. Also, Allied diplomacy had become far more warlike after '38; with France promising Poland a French offensive against Germany if Germany declared war against Poland. Combined, the armies of Poland and France were significantly larger than those of Germany; and Polish military planners believed they could win a war against Germany if France launched its promised attack. That belief, in turn, gave the Polish government a significant incentive to avoid diplomatic cooperation with Germany.
After Poland fell, it had initially appeared (based on the balance of forces) that Germany would reach a stalemate with France in the west over the short-term; with the combined Anglo-French industrial capacity being used to crush Germany in a long war. Obviously, that scenario was changed by the rapid fall of France. (An outcome caused not by French incompetence, but by the brilliance of a few German generals, the effectiveness of the Wehrmacht, and a fair amount of good luck for the Germans.)
However, in 1940, Britain produced more military aircraft than did Germany. Moreover, the U.S. shipped very large numbers of military aircraft and aircraft engines to Britain. Plans had been put into place to dramatically expand American aircraft production capacity, with fully half the aircraft produced sent to Britain. Germany lacked the industrial capacity and access to raw materials to compete against this long-term threat, or to prevent its cities from being destroyed by that combination of American and British industrial strength.
It was under those circumstances that Germany decided to invade the Soviet Union. Under its previous arrangement with the Soviets, German manufactured goods were to be traded away for Soviet raw materials. But by conquering the Soviet Union, Germany could have access to a far more significant amount of materials and manpower. This was an opportunity to put the (then) undefeated German Army to work in order to help solve the long-term air war problem it then faced.
Also, Hitler was suspicious of Stalin, and believed the Soviet dictator would launch a war against Germany as soon as the Soviet Army was ready. While Hitler was correct to suspect Stalin and his motives, Stalin’s actual plans were somewhat different than Hitler had believed. Stalin regarded both Germany and the Western democracies as equally enemies of the Soviet Union. Stalin therefore hoped for a long, bloody war between the two sides: a repeat of WWI. After both sides had been bled white, the Soviet Army would move westward into Europe; with neither Germany nor the Western democracies able to resist its advance. Over the short-term, however, this meant that Hitler could have gotten several years of Soviet neutrality, had he wanted it.
In planning the invasion of the Soviet Union, German military planners had believed the Soviet Army would consist of 200 divisions. In the spring of 1941, the German Army had 150 divisions–but they were qualitatively superior to their Soviet counterparts. However, the Soviet Union had vast reserves of manpower; and by the end of 1941 had expanded its army to the staggering size of 600 divisions.
In 1942, the Soviet Union out-produced Germany 3:1 or 4:1 in major land weapons categories, and produced nearly twice as many military aircraft as did Germany. There were several reasons for this, including the fact that Germany was somewhat behind the Soviet Union in terms of industrializing its weapons manufacturing effort. By 1944 German military production slightly exceeded that of the Soviet Union. But by then it was too late to matter.
Had Germany not invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, there is a very significant chance Germany would have been slowly crushed, and its cities destroyed, by the Anglo-American aircraft manufacturing effort.
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What biasd information are you guys looking at? Several things saved the Russians from losing Moscow in Barbarossa; one was the late start, two was the Germans were not outfitted for winter warfare and three that German commanders wasted time pillaging the civilians and bragging about taking certain cities almost like it was a game.
Don’t fool yourselves, Russia was very, VERY lucky to not lose. Purges of officers in the 30’s left the largest army in the world disorganized, and even the stupor that Stalin went into for several days when he realized the Germans actually attacked was almost the straw that broke the camel’s back.
And lets put it this way, do you really think with Russia out of the picture that the US would stomach losing millions in ANOTHER European conflict? Remember that the only reason we went to war with Germany was because Hitler declared war on us, the American people were perfectly content with taking care of Japan and letting the chaps on the other side of the pond deal with their own issues.
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