Larry has made clear that in the initial set-up of the game there will be no German land forces in Africa, nor any German naval units in the Mediterranean.
Assuming that the Italians will do as poorly on their own against the British as they did historically, there will need to be German reinforcements in order to make any Axis progress there.
So my question is: How will Rommel get to Africa?
Shipping transports out of the Baltic and around France would be inefficient and expose them to attack from the British navy and air force. There will need to be a German industrial complex located somewhere in the Mediterranean if effective aid is to be provided. My best guess is that France’s factory will be located in the south… once captured, this will give Germany the port it needs to help the Italians out.
What do you think?
Then again, check out the actual historical disposition of Axis and Allies forces in Africa in 1940 (especially at 03:10):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pociypmLyMo&feature=related
250,000 Italians in Libya (8 inf) and 300,000 in Ethiopia (10 inf) vs. 30,000 British in Egypt (1 inf).
If the game-set up is anything like the historical situation at the time, it looks like the Italians won’t need any help. 18 Italian infantry vs. 1 Brit: it’ll be a massacre!
…Maybe they just had unlucky rolls in the real '40? :wink:
Øøøøh, it´s alot simpler than that…
They use italian transports.
(Probably what they did historically also?)
This gives the german armor a slow entry, so it has to be planned and don´t come to late.
Personally, I’d imagine Germany putting a minor IC on the French territory on the mediterranean, and making a transport or two there.
Personally, I’d imagine Germany putting a minor IC on the French territory on the mediterranean, and making a transport or two there.
I’d prefer building my factory in the baltic.
250,000 Italians in Libya (8 inf) and 300,000 in Ethiopia (10 inf) vs. 30,000 British in Egypt (1 inf).
If the game-set up is anything like the historical situation at the time, it looks like the Italians won’t need any help. 18 Italian infantry vs. 1 Brit: it’ll be a massacre!
…Maybe they just had unlucky rolls in the real '40? :wink:
Heh, if only Il Duce had been fighting WWI all over again… His forces were like 20 years behind everyone else; think the British measured the amount of Italians captured in acreage. If you thought the French surrendering to Germany was bad…
His generals saw what was coming from the Brits and tried to play a defensive war they easily could have won with attrition, excepting for the fact that you can’t really fight a trench war in the middle of the desert if your anti-tank guns won’t fire, your own tanks are deathtraps, and the enemy has complete air superiority. Brits took them apart in a week.
Noting how badly they did in real life, I’d be surprised if anything more than 3-4 infantry represents Italy in Africa at the start of AAE40.
I’m hoping for a Vichy France surrender rule where part of the French fleet either switches to Axis control or is replaced by German transports. If there is a die-roll after French surrender where Germany can get some of the French fleet intact Sealion becomes even more tempting. An already-present minor IC where Marsailles is at would be convenient also.
Hopefully Rommel will go through Malta first this time on his way there.
There is also the possibility that Germany can build a minor IC in Greece? I’m sure ITALY will require German assistance in taking out Yugoslavia and Greece as they did historically.
But I imagine until then they will rely on the Italian Navy to ferry them across.
I’m hoping for a Vichy France surrender rule where part of the French fleet either switches to Axis control or is replaced by German transports.
Yeah I am hoping for the same thing. The Vichy France rule is an absolute must, especially if there will be no German troops in Africa.
Isn’t Malta going to be included in this game, with scramble rules in effect? Sweet Jesus.
I can see the Germans building an IC in Southern France, pushing out a token force and aiding the Italians. They just better take out Malta first.
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
Turn 1? It never fell and you’re talking about taking it turn one? Why? Surely the Italians have more important things to do. I mean, yea, it’s “a light in the darkness” and a thorn for Italy, but it will be worth nothing ipc wise and will take up valuable troops that could be spent better on capturing Egypt. I haven’t seen the board yet, but i don’t think i’ll be willing to make this “dedicated push” that larry says is required to take malta until i dominate most of africa as italy. anyone else thinking the same thing?
Play original europe. Malta fell every game G1 just to kill the fighter there so it couldnt harras you later
@ finnman: Germany will presumably start the game with a major IC in the Baltic. That still won’t help out with Africa. Presumably you’re saying that Africa won’t be worth fighting for as the Axis?
@ thomashawk: Using Italian transports to move German troops is incredibly inefficient (and dangerous). Imagine the following moves: G1–load German troops onto Italian transports; I1–move Italian tranports to destination; G2–unload German troops onto destination territory. That means that the Germans will be stranded at sea for an entire turn while the US, UK, and USSR air force and navy take potshots at them. I think that the Italian player would prefer to use their own transports for their own troops, to get them on the ground quicker, and to give them the revenue the captured territories will provide. Given how economically tight things are for the Italian player in A&A50, I expect that they won’t have a lot of spare IPCs lying around to buy extra (vulnerable) transports. Also, knowing that the Dardanelles will be closed to the Axis in this game means that the Italians will need all the IPCs they can get from Africa–they’ll have no time for mucking about giving free rides to the Germans!
@SgtBlitz: I recall some previous discussions on the boards regarding National DISadvantages. It’d be interesting if Italian infantry were numerous in the set-up, but were represented as A0/D1/M1/C2 units. Their (awful) tanks could be A2/D2/M2/C5 units… Cheap but plentiful.
@JayVon: Malta scramble = Yes. And it will, no doubt, be devastating to the Italians. I presume that the Brits and the Americans will want to land virtually every available fighter and tactical bomber in that theater there, given that it doesn’t fall in the early game.
@everybody else: Larry has nixed the Vichy rule. France is just another Allied power. It has no special rules for converting its units to Axis control pending the fall of its capital.
From the wide variety of responses to the original question that have been generated, I think I’ve got a better feel for how complicated an issue Germany’s resupply of Italian troops in Africa will be.
Key factors FOR African resupply seem to be:
Key factors AGAINST African resupply seem to be:
If I’ve left out any obvious factors, let me know.
For the moment, all things considered, it looks to me like the factors weigh towards resupply. However, as convoy raiding with Allied subs will be a concern in the Med, building up Axis naval presence there might be necessary regardless of the intention to take up the offensive in Africa. This necessary build-up will just make it easier to use the navy for what it was meant to do. It will be a touch balancing act for the Axis, nevertheless; it’s going to be very interesting to play Italy in this version, or the Germans, trying to figure out how to best distribute their forces and resources…
Dardanelles closed (no amphibious landings in USSR possible; makes Africa Axis priority)
remember either side can invade turkey to gain access to Dardanelles
Dardanelles closed (no amphibious landings in USSR possible; makes Africa Axis priority)
remember either side can invade turkey to gain access to Dardanelles
Hmmm. That’s true, but I think that Turkey’s defending forces are going to be quite tough, and will probably act as a strong deterrant for the Axis forces (Allied, too). Who knows? The USSR might have naval units waiting in the Black Sea, to boot ;)
I predict that taking the Dardanelles will be a low priority for Italy (Germany, too), as the Italians will probably need to get their NOs off of taking Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, and so on. The financial constraints will be too strong to enter into a needless conflict with a heavily-defended neutral country. Of course, this is all still open to speculation…
@The:
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
Turn 1? It never fell and you’re talking about taking it turn one? Why? Surely the Italians have more important things to do. I mean, yea, it’s “a light in the darkness” and a thorn for Italy, but it will be worth nothing ipc wise and will take up valuable troops that could be spent better on capturing Egypt. I haven’t seen the board yet, but i don’t think i’ll be willing to make this “dedicated push” that larry says is required to take malta until i dominate most of africa as italy. anyone else thinking the same thing?
Yes, and I’m sure that’s exactly what Rommel and Mussolini thought about Malta too. And probably why many of italy’s transports to Tunisia got sunk en route historically. Watch the British and US players land 5+ bombers/fighters on it round 3 and then see your fleet disappear.
@The:
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
Turn 1? It never fell and you’re talking about taking it turn one? Why? Surely the Italians have more important things to do. I mean, yea, it’s “a light in the darkness” and a thorn for Italy, but it will be worth nothing ipc wise and will take up valuable troops that could be spent better on capturing Egypt. I haven’t seen the board yet, but i don’t think i’ll be willing to make this “dedicated push” that larry says is required to take malta until i dominate most of africa as italy. anyone else thinking the same thing?
Yes, and I’m sure that’s exactly what Rommel and Mussolini thought about Malta too. And probably why many of italy’s transports to Tunisia got sunk en route historically. Watch the British and US players land 5+ bombers/fighters on it round 3 and then see your fleet disappear.
According to the World at War documentary, only 25% of the intended Axis supply ships ever made it across the Med to the African theater.
See 2:00:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgQ-HXAcMh0&NR=1
And as a result (see 3:00): “Malta became the most bombed place on Earth.”
If the Axis are actually able to take over the Air Base at Malta, however, they’ll be able to scramble their fighters and tactical bombers to defend the Italian and German fleets in the Med, which will lock down the area for subsequent conquests. It’ll be a key territory for either side, as it has the potential to determine the outcome of the fight for the Med. The Italians will be strongly motivated to take it out; it’ll probably be part of the standard I1 opener.
Malta was just a fly speck on the map before the scramble rules came into effect.
