yea that’s not surprising seeing how they were the last colony to join the revolution .
At least they picked the winning team : )
Seperation of Church and State
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The problem with these type of situations is the guy who comes out and disagrees looks like a jerk, when every one else is thinking the same thing but are afraid to say it.
For examle the Law in Kentucky that makes it Illegal to engage in premarital sex. Everyone thinks its stupid and most people violate the law, but If you come out and say “we should get rid of this law” you must be an immoral jerk who is out screwing horny housewives while there husbands are at work.
If you think premarital sex is immoral then don’t do it! Don’t mess with me when I’m trying to get my freek on! ;) (I am actualy married so this doesn’t aply to me anymore, but I still remember the good old days!)
Personaly I think we waste way to much time making ignorant laws. If it isn’t hurting you or someone else, mind your oun buisness.
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Of course laws that say stuff like you can’t engage in fornication are stupid, that just goes with out saying.
But identitfying ourselves as a culturally theist nation is diferent.
About Yanny saying that it is the Christian God being refered to (though it would technically be the Jewish and Muslim God to), one thing to understand is that a huge percentage of those who are theists in America are christians. Something like 4/5s of the Arabs in the U.S. are Christian because they fled to the U.S. to practice their religion.
Not neccessarily though is that specific any way
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Yanny and Ghoul, I don’t think it will be going any where soon. As I understand it, the President, the House, and with narrow margins the Supreme Court and the Senate support the pledge.
The USA is certaily the christian “protector” of the modern era, not only because of the strong christian faith but also because of the strong judeo-christian sense of moral (good, evil…). I really don’t think the jugement will stay… If it does i would be very surprised…
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The problem with these type of situations is the guy who comes out and disagrees looks like a jerk, when every one else is thinking the same thing but are afraid to say it.
For examle the Law in Kentucky that makes it Illegal to engage in premarital sex. Everyone thinks its stupid and most people violate the law, but If you come out and say “we should get rid of this law” you must be an immoral jerk who is out screwing horny housewives while there husbands are at work.
If you think premarital sex is immoral then don’t do it! Don’t mess with me when I’m trying to get my freek on! ;) (I am actualy married so this doesn’t aply to me anymore, but I still remember the good old days!)
Personaly I think we waste way to much time making ignorant laws. If it isn’t hurting you or someone else, mind your oun buisness.
LOL, getting your freek on…that’s some funny shit, I’m laughing my ass off.
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“For examle the Law in Kentucky that makes it Illegal to engage in premarital sex.”
Ha, this is worse than prohibition! 8) Of course California has it’s share of honkey laws. The Soda Tax more recently. What are they trying to do, not get people to drink Soda with some silly tax to help get rid of obesity!? Personally I’m against pemarital sex, but to take the words of Voltaire, “I may not agree with what you do in the privacy of your own bedroom, but I will defend you to your death for your right to do it.” :roll:
“Also, when we say “Under God”, we all know we’re supposed to be talking about the Christian God.”
Christianity isn’t the only religion with a monotheist God, there are plenty of others (I’m sure people have mentioned this). I may not believe in this “Christian God,” but I do believe in a single creator.
“In Tennesse, an Athiest cannot hold public office.”
Ha, this is almost as dumb as the “no premarital sex law.”
“But identitfying ourselves as a culturally theist nation is diferent.”
The overwhelming majority of the country is theist. We identify China as a rice eating nation, right? Let’s say 1 out of 1 billion don’t eat rice. Does this change our outlook? In this case of religion, the majority cultural identifiction wins.
“Give it enough time and any sort of relgious rhetoric will be gone from general public arenas.”
Who knows? Our country is getting more PC all the time. There are already PC actions in Texas (history teachers can no longer teach the phrase “Remember the Alimo” because it might offend Mexicans) and Texas is suppose to be the last remaining place of any “Real Men” (ie “I don’t do 39 cent Cheeseburgers”)! Heck even the newer additions of the American Bible are becoming unisexual (Jesus is no longer refered to as the son of God, but the Child of God)
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I’m not saying that religion is a bad thing or anything because I personally find it a good thing for most people but when it comes to that separation thing, I REALLY wish they could just stick with it… I know it wouldn’t happen unless things go like they did in the game Alpha Centauri(Great game : :) ) but I guess I’m just a bit paranoid about the church gaining too much power with the govt. like the Catholic church had with so many countries back in the middle ages in Europe.
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Yanny and Ghoul, I don’t think it will be going any where soon. As I understand it, the President, the House, and with narrow margins the Supreme Court and the Senate support the pledge.
The USA is certaily the christian “protector” of the modern era, not only because of the strong christian faith but also because of the strong judeo-christian sense of moral (good, evil…). I really don’t think the jugement will stay… If it does i would be very surprised…
this would make the USA kind of a handy sanctuary (santcus . . . holy) given the number of anti-Christian nations in the world. It’s nice to have a place to practice one’s religion in relative peace. isn’t that how the USA began as a nation? kind of a protectorate of oppressed Christians?
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Simple enough, politics ruins our government. No politician has the nerve to stand up and say “Its not right”.
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I would like to say politics should be taken out of politics and that we could return to the “Era of Good Feelings” (ie no political parties). But in today’s government, that’s almost impossible. As George Washington even said, “It’s a necessary evil.”
PS: Yanny, why don’t you make a poll on the Pledge of Alligence question?
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what exactly is this Pledge about? Being overseas i haven’t heard anything about it.
But for the separation of state and religion: Isn’t that one of the things that the USA opposed strongly in the Iran, that they have laws which correspond to the religion of the majority of their ppl? Isn’t Israel more of a Theocracy than a Democracy?
TO me, the US is the most fundamental christian state (see the dumb laws above) in the world, and strangely enough it uses its strength to go against muslim fundamentalist states for the reason that they are fundamentalists, but spares Israel of the same treatment, even though they are pretty close to the same fundamentalism just following another faith. -
Some people want to declare the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional and remove it from school and other places (or at least amend it), which I find totally ridiculous – even as myself not being part of this Christian “God.”
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It should be removed. Its unconstitutional, and was only passed in 1954 because Eisenhower fed propaganda to the US citizens about the “Athiest Soviets”.
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"It should be removed. Its unconstitutional, and was only passed in 1954 because Eisenhower fed propaganda to the US citizens about the “Athiest Soviets”.
In the Newdow Case (Pledge of Allegiance ruled unconstitutional) the fundamental question is what the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause means.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” is clearly written to guard against the establishment of a state-sponsored religion. However, exercising the right of religion cannot be infringed.
However law doesn’t normally condition ones behavior on how it will affect others around them. Instead, we are told to avert our eyes and turn our heads away from something we find objectionable.
The Pledge of Allegiance isn’t the only document to use the words “God,” implying a Creator. Let’s look at the The Declaration of Independence the Founders write:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are “endowed by their Creator with” certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
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And for the support of this Declaration, “with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence”, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.What are we to do now if the Pledge of Allegiance is upheld as unconstitutional? Do we amend the Declaration of Independence itself next?
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poor poor US of A
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First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not an official document of the United States and does not have any bearing on laws or practices in modern America. I think the pledge of alliegence is a really dumb idea, why should we have schoolchildren recite any kind of nationalistic slogan, speech, ect. at all? It sounds a little bit like what those godless communists would have done in the middle of the cold war. Ok kiddies, it’s time once again to pound into you the virtues of living in this great nation by reciting something together; doesn’t it make you feel good to be part of this great nation where everyone can say the exactly the same thing together. Not only do I find the pledge completely inaccurate and untrue, but that sort of conformity bothers me a great deal.
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Of course the declaration of independence is an official U.S. document. it brought the U.S. into being.
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No, the Declaration declared the independance of the 13 colonies. The United States of America did not come in to being until 11 years later when the Constitution was signed. The Declaration is just a piece of history, not a legal document.
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“Of course the declaration of independence is an official U.S. document. it brought the U.S. into being.”
Haha, good one.
“The Declaration is just a piece of history, not a legal document.”
The fact that the Pledge of Allegiance happens to be some sort of “legal document” means it can be declared unconstitutional, compared with the “less important” Declaration. Our country was born on the Declaration; it’s a legal document in the way that it [13 colonies] declared independence from England.
With the Pledge Unconstitutional, what’s next? The Supreme Court, itself, begins each of its sessions with the phrase, “God save the United States and this honorable court.” Congress begins each session of the Congress each day with a prayer. The Supreme Court has previously upheld the motto on our currency. In its own chambers the Supreme Court has a motif of all the great lawgivers, including Moses [hahaha, that’s me] with the Ten Commandments. And of course, our currency says, “In God We Trust.”
I wonder if we should have a poll if those words on our money made people become more religious. Do the words “Under God” in the Pledge suddenly turn atheist into religious fanatics?
“I think the pledge of alliegence is a really dumb idea, why should we have schoolchildren recite any kind of nationalistic slogan, speech, ect. at all? It sounds a little bit like what those godless communists would have done in the middle of the cold war. Ok kiddies, it’s time once again to pound into you the virtues of living in this great nation by reciting something together; doesn’t it make you feel good to be part of this great nation where everyone can say the exactly the same thing together. Not only do I find the pledge completely inaccurate and untrue, but that sort of conformity bothers me a great deal.”
Maybe we should ban the Star Spangled Banner because some people fine lines offensive to them. Tell me how the pledge is “completely inaccurate and untrue.” Should there not be liberty and justice for all? And not to the Republic for which it stands? Let’s say I start a club, and one of the first motions of a meeting is to recite our Chapter’s Pledge. Now while most of the members have grown to love it, I have grown tired of it. Now will they point a gun to my head and say, “Do this… OR ELSE you’re out of the club!” No, it’s optional. If I don’t want to hear it, I’m free to leave the club tree house and come back after the rest of the members have finished reciting it. This is true for America, the Pledge is optional. However, does this give me the right to take it away from the people who actually like reciting the pledge? The Pledge of Allegiance is conformist, it’s a way of unifying us together.
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TG, are you forced to Listen to the Supreme Court reciting that? Are you forced to listen to the National Anthem? All I want is the “Under God” removed from the Pledge, and the “In God we Trust” removed from all future money.
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“TG, are you forced to Listen to the Supreme Court reciting that? Are you forced to listen to the National Anthem? All I want is the “Under God” removed from the Pledge, and the “In God we Trust” removed from all future money.”
Who says you’re “forced” to listen to the Pledge of Allegiance? I’m sure if you find the words “Under God” so bad, feel free to leave. I’m sure the teachers allow that (well under the court edict at least). Other than schools, you don’t hear the pledge very often; in fact you hardly hear it at all once you get to high school.
Also, there are some parts of the Pledge of the Allegiance I might edit out. For instance, the word “Indivisible” (as in “For the Republic which it stands, under God, Indivisible”) is disgraceful to Confederates like myself. It was purposely written by some damnYankees trying to “brainwash” kids into believing the Union cannot be separated, something we had to fight a “second war for independence” over and loss. Now, should me and my confederate friends from the Dixie get together to declare the pledge unconstitutional? I think not. One of the Judges of the Newdow case wrote that the use of “one Nation under God” is ok, because its use has “drained [it] of meaning.” Now some religious folks may not agree with it, but I think the judge was right in the fact that if you recite something over and over, it starts to lose meaning. Sort of like the topic “What does Liberty mean?”
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