Because the friendly airplanes aren’t going to be scoring hits on friendly subs. :wink: You need a Japanese destroyer for the attacking Japanese planes to score hits on the defending US subs, which are still useless regardless because if Japan is attacking with only planes, the US subs still can’t hit the planes even though there’s a US destroyer. So you’re both right and wrong. :-P
I’m going to use a different approach, as I understand where he’s coming from better now. I should’ve said, "but the attackers aren’t assigning the hits, it’s the defenders that are chosing the casualties. If the fight is say, a cruiser, a destroyer and two subs, and 5 planes, the planes are going to roll all at once, he scores 3 hits, he doesn’t assign what the defenders are going to lose, the defender is the one chosing the casualties, in every fight, so he can chose to lose subs without returns and another boat. No?
No. Since the attacker hasn’t brought a DD along any hits scored by the planes can only be assigned to surface warships. Since he got 3 hits but there’s only 2 units that can be hit (the cruiser and the DD) the 3rd hit will be wasted.
It is the defender who assigns the hits but the rules state that a defending sub can only be hit by planes if there’s an attacking destroyer. If there isn’t a DD the defending player can’t assign those hits to the subs.
But it says attacking or DEFENDING. What do you think they mean by defending (and it’s specifcally referring to airplanes)? It’s the only thing it can mean. With a destroyer, taking subs as casualities is the only defensive advantage possible.
Here’s another thing, if you think it only works on D if the attacker has a DD and plane (friendly to the area) would you think it applies if the defender had a sub, DD,AC with a plane on it in the same sea zone? Could they then take a sub as casualty?
P. 29 under Destroyer - “…if a destroyer is along the battle strip, it cancels the Submersible, Surprise Strike, and Cannot Be Hit By Air Units unit characteristics of all ENEMY submarines in that battle.” Doesn’t say it cancels out friendly submarines’ abilities in those areas…
P. 30 under Submarine - “When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer that is FRIENDLY to the air units in the battle.”
While I can see where one could construe that it means that the presence of a destroyer allows hits to be assigned to friendly or enemy submarines, I don’t believe that this is the intent of the sentence. “Air units” in this context means either attacking air units with a DD friendly, or defending air units with a DD friendly.
Example: US Carrier, 2 planes, cruiser, and sub attacks Japanese carrier, 2 planes, DD, and sub. While DEFENDING, both Japanese planes hit. Because of the presence of the Japanese DD, the American sub can be taken as a casualty. That is an example of an air unit DEFENDING with the presence of a FRIENDLY DD. If the American planes hit, the hits must be assigned to surface ships because there is no FRIENDLY DD.
Let me use my teacher English and parse the rule: “When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units (that are attacking or being attacked) cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer that is FRIENDLY to the air units (that scored hits) in the battle.” We are talking about hits scored by air units in this sentence. When referred back to later in the sentence for the friendly DD exception, the air units referred to are the same air units at the beginning of the sentence that scored hits.
The rule must mean enemy subs. If I read the rule the way it is written, a hit scored by an air unit is assigned by the power that receives it. So if I am the American player in the above example with both Japanese planes hitting, I assign two hits. Because of the Japanese destroyer friendly to the Japanese planes that hit, hits can be assigned by the American player to the American submarine. The Japanese would not assign those hits to their own submarine. Conversely, if the American planes hit, the Japanese player cannot assign air unit hits to their sub because there is not a destroyer friendly to the American planes doing the hitting.
Thinking of it in a practical sense, how could the presence of say, an American destroyer allow Luftwaffe units to see American submarines under the water and sink them? That would be highly treasonous if the Americans were helping the Germans kill US subs. What is clear to me is that if you are attacking subs with planes, you cannot hit them without a friendly destroyer to sight them in for you.
P. 30 under Submarine - “When attacking or defending, submarines cannot hit air units.” Pretty black and white to me.
We’re not talking about P30. Under no circumstances can subs return on planes. We know that. But planes can hit subs, so since defenders always chose there own casualties it makes sense to me. The way the ruling is worded makes it sound like you guys are right but it doesn’t make sense. In certain circumstances it makes having a destroyer as part of your attack force, a disadvantage. It also leads to more broken game play like Russia sinking the Baltic german trans and DD turn one or, if you want to hit a sub, you buy an 8 IPC DD. If you want a sub to be taken as a casualty, you need to buy a destroyer, a carrier and a plane (32 IPCs).
As far as practicality goes, defenders in war don’t have the luxury of chosing what to lose anyway.
Another thing, about that scenario, the US is not defending, they are attacking. Just because they are removing casualties doesn’t mean they are the defenders.
Well, well, it is all very interesting and maybe someone who designed the rules can give the final answer, though I think Derek77 eloquent explanation is correct.
But I believe no one has answered the original question. What Japan is going to do if the US comes after her with floods of subs (and of course a limited number of other ships too). So far I have found that if the allies manage to push Japan back for about 3 rounds on the land, it can be really crippled very quickly. It happened to me, I did it once and I cannot see a proper counter strategy yet since the subs are so effecient attacking tool in Spring42.
Well, well, it is all very interesting and maybe someone who designed the rules can give the final answer, though I think Derek77 eloquent explanation is correct.
But I believe no one has answered the original question. What Japan is going to do if the US comes after her with floods of subs (and of course a limited number of other ships too). So far I have found that if the allies manage to push Japan back for about 3 rounds on the land, it can be really crippled very quickly. It happened to me, I did it once and I cannot see a proper counter strategy yet since the subs are so effecient attacking tool in Spring42.
Japan is all about getting inf on the mainland, as many and as fast as possible. Always keep your navy together. By round two, it should be consolidated and should establish a shuck between Japan and French Indo. Don’t deviate! By the time the US gets there with enough subs to threaten them you should have control of the land and Germany should be in good shape too if US is spending so much.
I agree with Col.Stauffenberg on how to respond to a US sub flood. Just make sure your transports are escorted by your massive starting navy, and add a destroyer or two to let your airforce help defend against those subs. Either the US player will give up and have to do something else to get at you, or they’ll just keep wasting extra IPCs trying to break through.
We’re not talking about P30. Under no circumstances can subs return on planes. We know that. But planes can hit subs, so since defenders always chose there own casualties it makes sense to me. The way the ruling is worded makes it sound like you guys are right but it doesn’t make sense. In certain circumstances it makes having a destroyer as part of your attack force, a disadvantage. It also leads to more broken game play like Russia sinking the Baltic german trans and DD turn one or, if you want to hit a sub, you buy an 8 IPC DD. If you want a sub to be taken as a casualty, you need to buy a destroyer, a carrier and a plane (32 IPCs).
As far as practicality goes, defenders in war don’t have the luxury of chosing what to lose anyway.
It does lead to G’s Baltic navy being nothing more than ducks in the water (but the same was true to Revised unless you bought at least 1 carrier) but if Russia wants to use (and risk them, since the fighter on Russia has to land on Karelia) its planes that way, that’s the players’ decision to make.
On the other hand not being able to hit subs unless you bring a destroyer really works both ways: the german subs are protected from allied planes during the 1st round and the same happens to allied subs on the Pacific.
This change in the rules (along with the defenseless transports) really changes the dynamic of naval battles. And yes, sometimes it is best not to bring a attacking destroyer so that any hits scored by the attacking planes can only be assigned to costly defending surface warships/planes instead of 6 IPC submarines.
Above all, this can lead to new opportunities when attacking. Fleets are not just the sum of their attacking/defending points and number of hits: you need to pay attention to the mix of units and their capabilities (or be ready for some surprises).
Hopefully I’ll be playing my friend on Friday. We’ll try it this way and see how it works.
The rule changes between Revised and the new AA50/AA42 rules makes it so that subs have to be used more the way they were actually used in the war: as stealthy attackers used mainly for quick raids on vulnerable targets. Intentionally including a loophole where you can intentionally use subs as shields for your bigger ships by comboing ac/ftr/des/sub is a little weird if the entire point of the rule changes seems to be to make it harder to just use subs as cannon fodder (unless your opponent is intentionally targeting subs by including destroyers), and impossible to use transports that way either.
focus on taking 1 of 3 routes to connect Germany and Japan
Route 1: take buryatia,sfe,yukut,ENO,etc.
Route 2: take China, Sinkiang, Kazakh, and Caucauses.
Route 3: take india, persia, trans-jordan, possibly egypt, and possibly Caucauses and kazakh
