@SuperbattleshipYamato edited
The Hitler Options
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Bah, this game does little to represent REAL troop/aircraft/tank numbers during the war… It simply factors in the surprise attack strength Germany had when it attacked both France and the Soviet Union. Both countries were caught with their figurative pants down, and the lower starting troop numbers represent that in-game.
It would be pretty hard to build this where you actually have plastic on the board representing the total army sizes and still have Germany win by rolling the dice. Maybe you could load the dice, like giving all Germany die rolls a -1 for the initial invasion of Fall Gelb in the Ardennes or Operation Barbarossa, and having all the Allied die rolls +1 for the battle. But dice odds would still throw the game out of whack for the Axis some of the time, in which case not having the units there in the first place negates this probability.
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@democratic:
They still had 37500 planes left over. More than anyone else.
Where are you getting these numbers from, I understand the USSR had the largest airforce in 1939, but from what i have read they no more than 3,000 fighters and bombers. You must of added a 0, 37,500 is absurd.
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I think the game should have leaders like in the War game. Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.
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The leaders could give a boast of defense when their territory is under attack :-)
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@Brain:
Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.
That’s what Eva Braun said.
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@Brain:
Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.
That’s what Eva Braun said.
Okay so there are now two of us :-D
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Easiest trigger for bringing Russia into the war is demanding that germany holds at least x Russian Victory cities when determining if it has waon ;)
Attacking Russia Early COULD be a wise strategy if you want to have soome time before the US enter the war.
What could trigger an early US war entry - if Germany attempts 8and fails?) Sea Lion - US goes immediately to war….
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What could trigger an early US war entry - if Germany attempts 8and fails?) Sea Lion - US goes immediately to war….
I could live with that.
Otherwise I think the rest of Europe should go under the heel of jackboots without the US joining the Allies…. maybe their IPC level could rocket to war-time production when triggered by Nazi gains but no combat.Never happen of course. Just check the address of WOTC and you know they won’t go in that direction.
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You guys are getting off of the Hitler subject.
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I’m wondering to what extent German politics will be dictated by Hitler’s personal goals, rather than those the Germany player may wish to attain.
Specifically, will the German player be able to postpone the attack on Russia in order to follow the Mediterranean strategy favoured by some of his commanders, particularly the navy?
Opinion is divided as to the wisdom of this approach; on the one hand it may have accelerated US entry into the war before Russia had been dealt with; on the other the conquest of the Middle East would’ve provided direct entry into the Caucasus (from the south) making the invasion of the USSR a much easier proposition.
From what I read into comments so far the game has been designed to make the German-Soviet conflict pretty much automatic in a couple of turns, thus following Hitler’s idealogical obsession rather than what may have been a more sound strategy.
While Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union was consistent with his strong ideological antipathy towards communism, ideology was not the only motivating factor. IN 1940, Hitler found himself involved in an unproductive air and sea war with Britain, with the British producing aircraft at a faster pace than Germany. Add in American production shipped to Britain (which was considerable), and Hitler felt he had to do something to change the equation. Because long-term, the combined industrial strength of Britain and the U.S. would have crushed Germany.
Another factor was the British food blockade, which resulted in a severe food shortage in German-occupied Europe.
Hitler felt that the conquest of the Soviet Union would secure a sufficient food supply for Germany, access to raw materials, and would create a significant increase in Germany’s available workforce and industrial capacity. These things would allow him to meet British and American air efforts on a somewhat equal footing. In addition, Hitler felt (correctly) that Stalin would invade Germany sooner or later, so it would be better to get the inevitable war with the Soviets out of the way quickly, before they had the chance to build up.
However, the German general staff underestimated how militarized the Soviet Union actually was in 1941. They thought that the Soviet Army had only 200 divisions, and that the heart of that army could be encircled and destroyed in a relatively quick blitzkrieg operation. In fact, the Soviet Army consisted of 600 divisions in the spring of '41. The Soviets were also considerably further along in their industrialization and military production efforts than the Germans had realized, and outproduced Germany by a margin of 3:1 or 4:1 in nearly every category of land weapons in 1942. The Soviets even built twice as many military aircraft as Germany did that year.
In hindsight, it would have made more sense for Germany to have postponed its invasion of the Soviet Union to swallow up North Africa and the Middle East. That task would have required a strong Axis naval presence in the Mediterranean, good supply lines, cooperation with Italy, and several other factors. Postponing Barbarossa would also have given the German war industry time to catch up to that of the Soviet Union. (Which it did by 1944, both because of internal improvements to German industry, and because of Germany’s access to Slavic workers and other resources from its war in the east.)
Stalin saw both the Nazis and the Western democracies as equally his enemies. He hoped for a long, destructive war between the two sides–a war that would bleed both sides dry without involving the Soviet Union. Then, after both sides were depleted, the Soviet Army would move into Europe and pick up the pieces. Given this way of thinking, it is likely that Stalin would have left Hitler alone for several years, had Hitler chosen to focus on the Middle East. Stalin also knew that Britain could purchase large numbers of aircraft from the U.S., thereby balancing out any production losses it might experience from the loss of some of its Empire.
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While ideological obsession was one driving factor, I don’t think any assessment of Hitler’s or Germany’s aims can underestimate the deeply etched impact of WW1 on the entire generation and their dreaded strategic nemesis: the two-front war.
Neutralizing Russia should have uber-NOs for Germany.
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Please do away with the NO’s.
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Kurt; 2 points:
One of the principle reasons for attacking in the Mediterranean/Middle East is to establish a southern front against Russia (i.e. through the Caucasus), enabling Germany to grab the vital oil centres early in the attack. Having to divert large forces to attack the area from the north in summer 1942 (rather than press towards Moscow) fatally wounded the last chances of winning in Russia.
Also, its been calculated that Germany gained far more in raw materials from Russia under the Hitler-Stalin pact than it ever did by occupying the most productive areas of the USSR. Of course Hitler believed he would have the lot before very long…
Actually Germany should get an IPC boost from Russia as long as they are not at war, as Stalin was keen to see Germany and the UK grind each other down and was very happy to supply the Germans with what they needed. It was when they tried to take what they needed that their war economy began to break down.
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Germany needed to send their women to work. I heard that somewhere.
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They didnt treat it like a TOTAL war the women didnt work and the factories closed at night…whereas everyone else worked nonstop and employed the other_gender_
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Kurt; 2 points:
One of the principle reasons for attacking in the Mediterranean/Middle East is to establish a southern front against Russia (i.e. through the Caucasus), enabling Germany to grab the vital oil centres early in the attack. Having to divert large forces to attack the area from the north in summer 1942 (rather than press towards Moscow) fatally wounded the last chances of winning in Russia.
Also, its been calculated that Germany gained far more in raw materials from Russia under the Hitler-Stalin pact than it ever did by occupying the most productive areas of the USSR. Of course Hitler believed he would have the lot before very long…
Actually Germany should get an IPC boost from Russia as long as they are not at war, as Stalin was keen to see Germany and the UK grind each other down and was very happy to supply the Germans with what they needed. It was when they tried to take what they needed that their war economy began to break down.
These are excellent points. I agree with everything you said, with one disclaimer: a successful North African/Middle Eastern campaign would have required a favorable naval situation for the Axis in the Mediterranean. I don’t know how close the Axis was to being able to achieve that. Beyond that, however, what you’ve described sounds like it would have been a much better policy, especially in hindsight.
While the idea of a North African/Middle Eastern strategy was discussed, Hitler opted against it for several reasons:
- He underestimated the present strength of the Soviet Union. Germany’s military planners thought the Soviets had 200 divisions. They had 600.
- Hitler’s impulse was to destroy the Soviet Union as quickly as possible, thereby depriving it of the time to complete its industrialization. What neither he nor other German leaders realized was that the Soviets were much further along in the process of industrialization and militarization than had been realized. It was not the Soviet Union which needed time to catch up with Germany–it was Germany that needed time to catch up with the Soviet Union!
- The Soviets had purged their army a few years earlier. That purge created a temporary leadership void–a void exacerbated by a subsequent switch from one kind of military doctrine to another. These factors seemed to present a very tempting (if relatively short) window of opportunity during which the Soviets could be quickly and easily defeated.
- Even though the U.S. was still neutral in the spring of '41, its industrial might was being increasingly turned against Germany. In 1940, American aircraft shipments to Britain were in the same ballpark as German aircraft production. And the U.S. had plans to increase its aircraft production capacity many-fold, with those aircraft to be sent to Britain to bomb German cities. Hitler’s fear of America’s industrial strength made him impatient to do something quickly, before American industrial strength could have a decisive impact. His hope was to gobble up the Soviet Union as quickly as possible, because later on he would need all Germany’s strength to defend against Anglo-American aircraft production.
But I agree that whether or not Hitler could afford to wait that extra year to invade the Soviet Union, he needed to wait. To grab the oil and raw materials you mentioned, to gain the extra places from which to invade, to give Germany’s military production a chance to start catching up to the Soviets’, and to weaken the British war effort. Still, my conclusion is based mostly on information which was not available to the German leadership at the time. If I had had only the information the German military planners had had, the decision to wait a year before invading would seem a lot less obvious.
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The leaders could give a boast of defense when their territory is under attack :-)
LOL, a Hitler leader piece should give a +5 to all die rolls to German troops when defending a territory. He was an awful tactician. Remember Berlin?
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@Brain:
I think the game should have leaders like in the War game. Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.
LOL I bet you played that Star Wars empire video game where the Emperor and Darth Vader could be shipped around to various planets to influence Rebel/Empire standings… So is the Hitler piece going to be a last ditch piece on which if he dies, the Empire falls?
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Mabey their could be a Hitler peice that could go to Neturals a make their standing better towards Germany (eg True Netural to Pro-Axis).
And mabey he could cause agacent territories to have 3 inf to defend on 3 or something.
If he dies, they loose that advantage, and Russia, UK and US claim a 1 time NO of 10 IPCs or something.
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If AH falls the REICH would PROSPER ;)
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