I just had this idea what if instead of attacking france…you attack russia instead? I mean how big is france? like three territories. You can hold them off ( I dont see them making more than 20 IPC) While you take care of the (Inevitable) Red threat. Russia shouldnt be that built up in 1940. Italy can totally_help too! what do you guys think?_
I just had this idea what if instead of attacking france…you attack russia instead? I mean how big is france? like three territories. You can hold them off ( I dont see them making more than 20 IPC) While you take care of the (Inevitable) Red threat. Russia shouldnt be that built up in 1940. Italy can _totally_help too! what do you guys think?
Give it a shot! __
Hmmm, historically, Germany had just signed a non-aggression treaty with the Soviet Union in Aug 1939, in which they partitioned Poland. The West viewed this as a stab-in-the-back since Hitler’s Germany was supposed to be a bulwark of Western civilization against the Communists in Russia. A lot of Western politicians (Neville Chamberlain, specifically) had also been willing to back Hitler through his aggressive tactics in acquiring the Rhineland, Austria and Czechoslovakia from 1936-1938 since he had been such a loud and fierce opponent of the Communists. A lot of the decision to declare war by the Western Powers on Germany if it invaded Poland was based on the weariness of playing the back and forth both sides game between the East and West. Plus obviously Hitler could not be trusted.
Though, Germany DID backstab the Reds in Jun 1941, only 2 years after signing the non-aggression pact, so invading in 1940 probably wouldn’t be that much different… Wonder how Larry is going to put in the peace treaty between the Reds and Germany at game start? Or if its possible to reswitch alliances between the East to West again and be at peace with France and UK at beginning?
Not sure if its possible for France and UK to “undeclare” war or something… since they already were technically at war.
Geez I forgot about the whole treaty thing. hmm…I dont see how it will make a difference. Maybe the russian player can be on the german players team! No wonder pacific is coming out first Its way less complicated!
I just had this idea what if instead of attacking france…you attack russia instead? I mean how big is france? like three territories. You can hold them off ( I dont see them making more than 20 IPC) While you take care of the (Inevitable) Red threat. Russia shouldnt be that built up in 1940. Italy can _totally_help too! what do you guys think?
Good strategies will become apparent once you have the game.__
Actually Russia had the world’s largest army when Germany invaded in 1941. But because of the treaty they were ill prepared for a strike by the Germans and the Russians lost huge quantities of men and machines during the first few months of operation Barbarossa. In fact if Hitler had not swept South to conquer Kiev, moving much of his mobile force away from Moscow, we might have seen Russia get conquered by the Germans! i think to make this accurate, Germany should get a first turn special attack like Japan had in AAP. Russia had huge forces but they were decimated because of the swiftness of the Germans, also on the first chance to invade I think units that move more than one spot should be able to move until they run out of moves, regardless of how many times the unit is in battle. This can simulate the blitz that the Germans put on the Russians which allowed them to conquer an area twice the size of Germany in six weeks if I remember correctly. Basically make the game to where if Germany plays their cards right, Russia can be taken in 2-3 turns, but as I have said in another post, make the game to where more than one allied capital has to be taken for an Axis victory, thus eliminating the tendency for Axis players to focus on Russia from both sides, because once they are done with that, they have a whole other capital to worry about.
I think if you just keep a token force on the west and go straight for Russia, you could be in trouble. There will be many more tt between German forces and Moscow (I think at least 6). You will not only allow France to keep building (very dangerous) but also allow the UK to get a better foot hold on Europe. If France and UK build the new tac bmr they could blitz Berlin (it will be fairly close). That would be different!
I forgot to address your question, yes you should be able to ignore France but would be unwise. There are several reason to invade France early:
1. easy money- France was relatively weak having mostly men and artillery with no modern tanks to help defend, the only crown jewel being the Maginot Line, but we all know what happened there, :).
2. You don’t want a three front war! Two fronts is already considered a cardinal sin in battle, read Sun Zsu’s art of war or Hitler’s own Mein Kompf to see why you don’t want a two front war let alone a three front one!
3. Russia at the start was trying to appease Germany by slowing front line fortification and Hitler only attacked because Russia conquered territory that came very close to Romania and the Ploesti oil fields, Hitler’s only major supply of oil. If Larry wants to make a natural trigger to the game, allow Russia the opportunity to invade the middle east and take the bountiful amounts of oil away which Germany would need to meet requirements of one of their IPC bonus goals. naturally the German player would want to do a preemtive first strike before this allowing for the special first turn attack similar to Japan’s in AAP.
4. France would give vital IPC’s that would allow more buildup of troops to complete Leibensrabe, or living space for the German people, another IPC bonus for Germany.
This would give all the incentive in the world to take France as fast as possible to be able to set up an attack on a huge but ill prepared Russian Army. You would eliminate a natural enemy in France, make Britain the lone warrior against Germany and make it that much easier to concentrate on Russia.
Again if Larry wanted to do this right he would make it suicide if you left France open without taking it before your Russian invasion.
I agree with you. It would be suicide if you left france alone… But Wouldnt it make sense to get rid of the big enemy first? I mean if france beat the italians. Why cant try and change history and let italy attack france instead? ( Italy is pretty close to france.) While germany deals with the arguably larger immediate threat.Russia. If they are out of the picture there wone BE a two front war.
Russia was not an immediate threat though, remember that Germany signed a non-aggression pact with Russia only breaking it when Germany did not have another threat on the European mainland. Hitler did not like amphibious warfare, which is why he left Britain alone, plus he felt they were already beat, little did he know……but yeah you could try and have Italy invade France, but really Italy is going to be needed to secure Africa and the oil rich Middle East. Until Germany attacked Russia, they won’t attack because Stalin was scared of the Germans, thus the reason for the pact and subsequent appeasement even in the face of an inevitable invasion, Russia was still trying to mend fences per se. Trust me, you want and need the money France will give you, might as well take it before you have to worry about Russia.
Another thing is - if the French and Brits can hold some French territory what then happens when the US enters the war? You might end up with more than you can handle…
Like I said its going to take like 5 rounds or more to get to Moscow. By then the French & English will be power houses on your back door. They will also be able to kick the Italians out of Africa by then. The only problem the allies will have is should I take Rome 1st or Berlin.
Actually Russia had the world’s largest army when Germany invaded in 1941. But because of the treaty they were ill prepared for a strike by the Germans and the Russians lost huge quantities of men and machines during the first few months of operation Barbarossa. In fact if Hitler had not swept South to conquer Kiev, moving much of his mobile force away from Moscow, we might have seen Russia get conquered by the Germans! i think to make this accurate, Germany should get a first turn special attack like Japan had in AAP. Russia had huge forces but they were decimated because of the swiftness of the Germans, also on the first chance to invade I think units that move more than one spot should be able to move until they run out of moves, regardless of how many times the unit is in battle. This can simulate the blitz that the Germans put on the Russians which allowed them to conquer an area twice the size of Germany in six weeks if I remember correctly. Basically make the game to where if Germany plays their cards right, Russia can be taken in 2-3 turns, but as I have said in another post, make the game to where more than one allied capital has to be taken for an Axis victory, thus eliminating the tendency for Axis players to focus on Russia from both sides, because once they are done with that, they have a whole other capital to worry about.
Let’s not forget the PURGE!!! Stalin had a purge of his armed forces in 1937-38, and got rid of most of his competent generals and officers and replaced them with Communist stooges that were very good at shifting blame onto their inferiors (one of the fatal flaws in World Communism, it tends to reward the most mediocre or those best at playing the political game). The Finnish invasion’s Winter War in Nov of 1939 demonstrated this folly to the world and showed many deficiencies in the Red Army… which was noted by the Germans as a critical weakness and factored into their invasion plans (Hitler is quoted as saying the Germans would only have to kick in the door and the whole thing would collapse like a house of cards!.. he was proven wrong).
Stalin was also slavishly enamored of Hitler as a fellow dictator, and trusted him until the end, still not believing what was happening when the Germans were invading in June 1941. All these factors and above are reflected in that the Reds start with a huge DEFENSIVE army in 1940 but no real offensive units and they must be chosen carefully by the player to maximize effectiveness of his forces when the Germans DO finally turn their attention to Russia.
But yeah, if Germany WAS capable of keeping their Siegfried line intact in the West and continue their drive in the East I suppose its plausible; earlier better than never. Personally, I’m totally mystified by them breaking their treaty with Russia; Stalin was sending Germany TONS of needed resources through the treaty, and they could have thrown their research into jet fighters and naval tech for invading Britain, or just throwing a lot more forces into Africa to kick Britain out of the Middle East.
I guess all of this shows just how crazy Hitler’s schemes were. Hopefully Larry will have a rule set up so that repeating mistakes of the past isn’t inevitable.
Does that mean that the axis dont stand a chance? Or does that mean they never did? I think if it wasnt for that whole lenningrad thing the germans could have taken russia. But they way you guys make it sound the axis are COMPLETELY surrounded by enemies…
Does that mean that the axis dont stand a chance? Or does that mean they never did? I think if it wasnt for that whole lenningrad thing the germans could have taken russia. But they way you guys make it sound the axis are COMPLETELY surrounded by enemies…
Heheheh, if you look at it from the Axis sides’ perspective, OF COURSE they were surrounded by enemies… BUT in reality most of these “enemies” were self-autonomous powers that were just looking out for their best interests, without giving a damn about the greater global picture and what happened within it. We take for granted today the U.N. and the our scrutinizing news reporters/human rights advocates/genocide watchers, that did not exist in 1940… US was pacifist to the bitter end at Dec 7th, 1941, Pearl Harbor; looking at the actions of the world countries in the 1930’s-40’s, one could say that Britain and France were more of the world’s traffic cop! Germany declared war on Russia and the US, which was totally not 100% necessary and the US war declaration was probably what sealed Germany’s fate more than anything!
I believe the quote was: “You have only to kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down!” But you are right, that did play a role, but remember, Russia had more planes than all other nations combined and equaled the world’s forces in tanks, but because of bad officers, a surprise attack by Germany, and Stalin going almost catatonic for a week when the invasion happened attributed to the slaughter and capture of millions of Russian prisoners. Again Russia was extremely lucky that Germany did not invade Moscow because Hitler was more concerned about beating armies in the field rather than taking cities. And not to mention one thing Larry should include was the Russian backed Yugoslavia uprising in the Spring of 1941. That stalled Hitler’s plans by six weeks, allowing precious fair weather months to slip away from the Germans. Even though….Hitler’s mistake of not going straight for Moscow was the downfall of the first invasion, the second was because he wanted to stoke his ego by taking Stalingrad like an idiot. These mistakes were paramount to Russia not being taken over by Germany, believe me they were within an ace of capture. I think SgtBlitz is right that we should be allowed to correct these mistakes but set it up as it was so we have lots of decisions to make. And I still think that we need to have it where several allies should have to fall for an Axis victory, like Frnace, UK and Russia. Because in the real thing it was several Hitler blunders that caused Russia to stay in the fight, if we are flawless in our tactics we should be able to conquer Russia and then that would leave the UK and US to win the Europe front. But Larry should make the US a beast in the economy department, we equaled the entire world in steel production at the start of the war and were outproducing it by the end of the war, the US should have an income that should almost equal the Axis all by itself.
"But Larry should make the US a beast in the economy department, we equaled the entire world in steel production at the start of the war and were outproducing it by the end of the war, the US should have an income that should almost equal the Axis all by itself. "
Ahh Yea the good old days when America actually had a manufacturing core. Thanks NAFTA.
@WILD:
"But Larry should make the US a beast in the economy department, we equaled the entire world in steel production at the start of the war and were outproducing it by the end of the war, the US should have an income that should almost equal the Axis all by itself. "
Ahh Yea the good old days when America actually had a manufacturing core. Thanks NAFTA.
LOL, yeah. Only way Axis to win is if it takes over the rest of the world, THEN USA might start having some problems.
So seririously I have to (assuming I am axis) take over almost all of europe. and THEN go after america? I like games where I can do a lot of different things (the 1941 scenerio in AA50 comes to mind). It just sounds so forced for the axis player…take france…then take britian…oh no! now I have to fight russia. Then comes america. I dont think poor little italy will be much help at all…
Italy is good for one thing, well make that two. Attacking Africa and the Middle East, and supplying the Atlantic and Mediterranean with ships. They were and should be the breaking point for the Axis in the game. As long as Italy holds out then Germany will be a tough nut to crack, lose Italy and Germany will fall like a house of cards, so long as Russia is still alive.
