That tea $hit got a lot of allied soldiers killed during WWI though and Germany knew UK would do that.
Operation Market Garden
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Hey all,
I’m making a AAM map of operation market garden. As of right now its on a 4’ by 4’ sheet of plywood. I’ve hit google quit a bit corisponding what allied units went head to head with what German units. I’ll gather my notes and post them here. I’d like to hear any info you guys have to throw into the pot.
Thanks,
-LT04
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What your “Hex” Distance? 100 Meters? Then what area of the Battle are you representing? I have studied Market Garden extensively in leiu of producing a game for it (actually 2 games). So if you have any thing I can actually give you a plethera of already gathered material… Mind you not my stuff :-D
GG
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Guerrilla Guy,
I have all the US patches and insignia that were involved, but I’m still looking for the following:
Allies:
1st Airborne Division (British)
XXX Corps (British)*
1st Polish Independent Parachute BrigadeAxis:
19th SS Grenadier DIV
20th SS Grenadier DIV
9th Panzer DIV
10th Panzer DIV
59th INF DIV
85th INF DIV
719th INF DIV
9th SS Recon Battalion*I know there were Canadian Troops in the mix were they part of XXX Corps?
I’m using the unit patches to indicate where the starting locations will be as well as the allied reinforcements from the British 1st Air landing light REG, 82nds 325 gliders and the 101sts 327 gliders.
Also I have heard the British had the 52nd (Lowland) DIV involved not sure where they were.
Back to your question as to what part of the operation am I going to try to recreate. I have decided that a 4’ by 4’ map is to small so I’m going to try to recreate the whole thing on a 4’ by 8’ map. I know it’s no where near to scale but I like the idea of having it easy enough to have XXX Corps move as one unit from one location and reinforce its assigned units as it gets to them.
Also I have opted not to use the conventional hex set up, I toyed with the idea of using octagons b/c then units can move left and right like in real life. I scraped that idea b/c on the top, bottom, left and right I had to have a dead space so they would all fit correctly. I didn’t like that so I went to squares and units will be able to move like on a chess board. In addition to that I can make the squares smaller then the octagons and still have more area in the space b/c they absorb the old dead spaces.
So as of now my project size is 4’ or 24 spaces by 8’ or 48 spaces. Seeing as how each turn will more likely represent a day instead of a minute as far as reinforcement schedules go dropping the scale size dramatically didn’t bother me.
I hope to have a picture of the prototype soon for you to take a gander. Looking like tomorrow will be a good time.
Thank you for the help you offered,
-LT04
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9th SS Hohenstaufen
and
10th SS Frundsburg[attachment deleted by admin]
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Awesome! Thanks,
-LT04
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This is the pic that I keep coming back to for the British Airborne. Does any one know if it’s the British 1st, 6th or a British airborne Corps unit?
Thanks,
-LT04
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I’ll try and help, as Market Garden is one of my favorite topics of WW2.
By your unit listing, it sounds like you are going to concentrate on Arnhem? Yet you also mention the 82nd and 101st airborne later…
If you do include Eindhoven, Nijmegen, and the beginning of the drive, a rectangular map would do better.
I’m pretty sure that patch is simply British Airborne (both the 1st & 6th have used it), but the 1st were the ones participating in MG.
The Canadians appear to have been the group that was fighting in the area of the Market Garden operation. They also lent supplies, engineers, and other support for the operation as it went on. It appears that they “completed” the mission by capturing Arnhem months later when MG failed.
The 52nd were slated to land at an airfield that was to be captured, but that didn’t happen…
(No, I didn’t remember ALL of that…)
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This is the pic that I keep coming back to for the British Airborne. Does any one know if it’s the British 1st, 6th or a British airborne Corps unit?
Thanks,
-LT04
That is the 1st Airborne Patch.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://users.interstroom.nl/~heijink/marketgarden/images/30rdcorps_patchbritish.jpg&imgrefurl=http://users.interstroom.nl/~heijink/marketgarden/xxxcorps.html&h=154&w=156&sz=6&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=26yjwg3BawQdqM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3DXXX%2BCorps%2BPatch%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG
And that is the XXX Corps Patch… The 52nd Lowland Division was an Airmobile Division meaning that it had to have a taken Airfield, and the only available one (which the 1st Airborne hoped to seize day 2) was north of Arnhem, hence it never was put into the battle. Its commander even offered to have them dropped in the thick, but HQ said no…GG
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Maybe we can incorporate the 52nd into this scenario. For example let’s identify an airfield on the board we’ll make it like an objective. If the allies control it at the start of lets say the fifth round they get the reinforcements, if the Germans control it they don’t.
Was the 52nd supposed to land in or near Arnhem?
I know it’s going to be hard for you guys to visualize my map if you can’t see it yet so here is a system I devised until a decent prototype can be posted.
I took two 4’ by 4’ pieces of plywood and put them side by side to make a 4’ by 8’ map. I changed the spaces from hex’s to squares to create more movement options like on a chess board giving you 8 options instead of 6. Also it was easier to layout.
North to South will be 8’ so East to West will be 4’. We’ll start in the upper left hand corner. That space will be called A1. A-X will be West to East. 1-48 will be North to South. I made each space 2’’ by 2’’. You confused yet?
Arnhem is 4-S (Upper Right) British 1st will start between Arnhem and Oosterbeck, just North of the Lower Rhine.
I found an awesome picture of the 82nd deployment some where so I assume that’s pretty accurate, I’m still at a loss for 101st DZ’s so any help here would be greatly appreciated. I suppose I’ll make a laundry list of needs and questions and post them.
Anyway 82nd is South of Nijmegan. 508th PIR is SE, 505th PIR is S and the 504th is SW on the other side of the canal. All of this for the most part is on the same sheet of plywood as the British 1st. at the bottom center and overhangs to the top center of the second sheet.
I haven’t got that deep into the 101st yet because I haven’t found a deployment picture or map that I like. I don’t want to set up the 101st until I have the terrain fine tuned. Any pictures or maps for this would be greatly appreciated.
So let me start the laundry list so I can get a prototype up and running.
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Need terrain and 101st deployment layout.
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Where was the British 52nd supposed to land?
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Where were the 325 Gliders (82nd), 327 Gliders (101st) and the 1st Air landing light REG. land in perspective to their units?
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I know all the German units involved and I know that the 59th INF DIV went up against the 101st can any one help me with where the other German units were located?
Thanks,
-LT04
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Hey guys,
Here is kinda what I’m thinking as far as troop deployments go. I’m going to lay out my ideas in numeric sequence so if you have a dispute or a comment could you reference the topic number for me this way you don’t have to quote (unless you want to) and others can quickly look back as a reference, thanks.
1. DZ Deployment Here’s a visual image for you at your finger tips. I placed a DZ in one space. Picture that space as the H on you key board. Once the staking limit is full the player can choose to deploy units in the Y, U, J, N, B, G, or T. Not to exceed stacking limits. This way they can deploy as units next to each other.
2. Who goes first? The German player will set troops up first. The player will do this in similar fashion as the traditional AAM game 5 spaces from the West edge of the map going East.
3. The British 1st will be the second player to set troops on the map. Like I said in an earlier post they will be located between Oosterbeck and Arnhem just north of the Lower Rhine.
4. The 82nd player will be the third player to set up troops. The 82nd will deploy troops for the 508th East of Nijmegan on the South side of the Waal River. The 505th will be mostly south of Nijmegan and just offset slightly to the East. The 504th will be deployed South-West of Nijmegan and on the west side of the canel.
5. I haven’t started with the 101st I want to wait until I have better intel on their surroundings, but they will be the last unit to set up.
6. Polish and XXX Corps units will be previously established by the allied players at the same time the other units are. They will be kept off to the side until their perspective deployment schedules allow them to appear in a DZ like manner.
7. 1st Independent Polish Parachute Brigade will deploy as reinforcements on turn 5. Due to a lack of polish units in the AAM community I suggest they be represented as British units and also be controlled by the British player.
8. XXX Corps units will be broken down into three parts. (You should be seeing a trend forming here with three distinguished allied factions forming.) One of each faction will be controlled by each of the allied players.
9. XXX Corps will be deployed to the British / Polish player on turn 6. I need some help here where did they meet up at? I read they met the Polish troops in Driel I don’t see it on any of the maps I have.
10. I have decided each turn will represent one day. That’s how I have come up with when what reinforcements get to where they want to go. I’m open to suggestions if any one has a better idea.
11. Turn 3, 504th of the 82nd meets up with XXX Corps.
12. Turn 2, XXX Corps reaches Eindhoven and the 101st.
Sorry to get the time line out of order I’m thinking in terms of reinforcing players from order of play.
13. Again I am open to suggestions but I was thinking that 10 rounds should do it. The battle itself was nine days so an extra round wouldn’t hurt, plus this keeps in line with the standing rules of 10 terns.
14. The objectives, in each perspective sub-campaign (each allied player) there are a varying number of bridges. My proposal is the objectives are the bridges. This would be a little complex but my idea for having taken the objective is as follows:
a. The player controls both sides of bridge.
b. The player controls one side of the bridge with no opposing presence on the other side.
c. The Allied Player must have taken all the bridges in their perspective area meeting terms of a or b to achieve victory.
d. If the German player holds any bridge in that players section that’s a German victory.
e. One allied player may fail and still achieve victory. (Best two out of three)I know this is a lot to digest. Take you time and look it over I know this won’t be 100% accurate but no reason to sabotage it anyway. Let me know what you think.
-LT04
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@Guerrilla:
That is the 1st Airborne Patch.
The 6th used it on D-Day. Some glider pilots had them as well - that’s why I thought it was a general Airborne patch.
So let me start the laundry list so I can get a prototype up and running.
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Need terrain and 101st deployment layout.
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Where was the British 52nd supposed to land?
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Where were the 325 Gliders (82nd), 327 Gliders (101st) and the 1st Air landing light REG. land in perspective to their units?
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I know all the German units involved and I know that the 59th INF DIV went up against the 101st can any one help me with where the other German units were located?
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I’ll check my references to see. I’ve got an awesome map book of battles of WW2, plus a couple on Market Garden specifically. The wiki on Market Garden has some deployment pics as well.
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The 52nd were to land at Deelen Airfield, I believe, but I will recheck this. It was to the North of Arnhem. They never made it in.
3)Check the wiki.
4)http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_arnhem.html has a few maps that show some stuff. There’s more to be found, though…
I like your idea of capturing the airfield for more reinforcements, but that should be an option and not a goal of the game.
You might want to find some way (I don’t know about your game mechanics) about planned deployment of units - allowing players to choose how they want to deploy w/ limitations or boundaries. But that’s probably some ways down the road.
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15. There was a fairy they Polish Paratroopers were supposed to use to meet up with the British 1st. What I have read is the fairy was missing and was later found down stream unserviceable. What would you say if we established a dock on the map? If the Germans held that space at the beginning of turn 5 the fairy was destroyed. If the space was unoccupied anyone who held that location could choose to destroy or use it like an exclusive bridge. Just taking input, I’d like to know what you think about this subject.
-LT04
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Jermofoot,
I agree it shouldn’t be a major objective. Thanks for brining this up.
16. Primary objectives will be the bridges. Secondary objectives will allow additional troop reinforcements. As of yet the only two proposed secondary objectives are for the British campaign of the 52nd reinforcements (this will be awarded topic 17) and the polish fairy crossing (15).
-LT04
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On the Polish XXX corp meet up:
I believe it was only a scout unit that ventured to the extreme left of Hell’s Highway. Something about Greyhounds comes to mind…that may have been the vehicles involved. Anyway, Hell’s Highway was bogged down as the single road in was elevated against the surrounding fields, making vehicles easy pickins’ for entrenched AT guns. The Poles didn’t meet the the main body of XXX corps.
That fairy you speak of, which I recall reading about, I think was a mapping blunder. Or weather previous to the action knocked it out. There was no sabotage involved, IIRC.
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Jermofoot,
I think that XXX Corps was in the second Army. I want to say XII Corps (???) was also in the second army and was called the Grey Hounds I’ll look into it.
-LT04
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Concerning the bridges:
The Son Bridge (101st objective) was destroyed before the Americans could capture it. You may remember the scene in A Bridge Too Far. I believe there was a secondary bridge at Veghel. That may have been more towards Nijmegen. The destruction of the Son bridge held XXX Corps substantially…they were way behind schedule.
At Arnhem, the Brits were divided. I remember a group of Engineers held the northern end of the Arnhem bridge for some time until they had to surrender. A counter attack by the Germans from the southern end with vehicles was even prevented. I do know another group reached a secondary railroad bridge, but I don’t remember if the successfully capture it or not. I’m leaning towards no…
A lot of the “iffiness” comes from playing Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far for PC way back in the day. A game you might want to pickup to get some ideas. It’s great to play anyway.
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That very game is where I got most of the layout ideas. When you choose campaign before you begin playing the game itself it has an awesome map of the whole Operation. That’s the reason I went to 4’ by 8’. It was difficult seeing specific objectives but it gave me a great over view to work with and allowed me to fill in the blanks with better detailed smaller maps.
-LT04
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Basically, I would do a “hidden objective”. Are you trying to get more troops off several road hexes? Are you trying to destroy the II SS Panzer Corps HQ? Are you trying to secure the 4 Cities (Arnhem, Eindhoven, Nimijen, and S’HertogenBosch)?
Also 9th and 10th SS Panzer were located in and around Arnhem and Fought the British Airborne.
GG
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Guerrilla Guy,
What do you mean by hidden objective? I’m still up for debate as to what the main objectives should be (topic 14). I like the idea of taking II Panzer HQ.
Thanks for the info about where the 9th and 10th Panzer locations are. Do you have any more specific information as to where they were? Were they between Arnhem and Nijmegan?
-LT04
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“The RAF coordinator refused to drop near the town itself on the north side of the target bridge because of the presence of flak guns at Deelen (Ede).” This is a quote I took from wiki.
I started looking for objective cities on Google Earth. I don’t know how much things have changed over the past 60 years but city centers can’t have moved all that much.
The following is in reguards to 52nd INF
I put Deelen in there and it sent me way South East of Eindhoven. I found out the name was later changed to Ede. It’s located North West of Arnhem past Oosterbeck. Do you think thats the potential landing site of the 52nd?
-LT04
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