Longtime A&A player and reader, but a first-time poster.

I see two structural problems with 1942 SE. First, Africa is often uncontested. Second, China can be overrun pretty quickly. This leads to often predictable gameplay.

Couldn’t the 1942 SE 3.0 setup be retrofitted to play more like Anniversary (or G40) by adding Italy and China as minor players?

The mod would look something like:
Italy controls Italy, Southern Europe, Libya, Algeria, and Italian East Africa. (8 IPCs)
Add Italian inf to Italian East Africa.
Move fighter from Bulgaria/Romania to Southern Europe and make it Italian.
Add an Italian destroyer to sz 15.

Move the UK destroyer from sz 17 to sz 6.
Move UK fighter from Egypt to South Africa
Add IC to South Africa
Add inf and art to South Africa
Add art to Burma

No access from sz 17 to sz 16.

China can place inf at 2 IPC/inf anywhere in China. Chinese forces can only venture into Manchuria and Kiangsu. For Chinese territories that start under Japan’s control, the UK and the US get the IPCs if they take these territories.

The turn order would go: China, Italy, Russia, Germany, UK, Japan, US. This way, China can immediately place 2 inf and Italy can immediately put pressure on Egypt.

It seems like this would significantly open up the board. Italy makes life more difficult for Britain in the West, but having China makes their job easier in the East. Germany getting less money also helps Russia, which may give them more opportunity to counterattack.

What do you all think of this kind of modification?

Thanks for your response @Witt!

So I have played this a few times, and China can really stunt Japan’s growth, especially early. I think the mod has real legs, especially since it allows Russia to stand up to Germany a bit more since Germany’s IPC total is at least 7 IPCs lower.

The turns seem to go:

• Italy takes Egypt
• China places two inf in either Szechwan or Yunnan.
• Russia does the typical 9/12 and moves inf from Evenki, Novosibirsk, and Kazakh into Sinkiang. China is now pretty strong defensively.
• Germany loses its Ukraine plane(s) and also gave up a fighter to Italy so it can’t threaten the UK navy nearly as well.

The UK has options, esp. in the East where China is pretty safe. I’ve played it where the cruiser and CA kill the boats in sz61. The UK trans stops in 36 and drops off two inf from India, which is combined with an attack from Burma (incl. the additional art) and the fighter from the CA.

This puts Japan immediately on its heels. It can take out the UK fleet easily and will take Anhwei, but China can drop another 2 inf in Szechwan next turn, and the Russian inf from the far east can pour into Sinkiang. Very fun to see Russia buy a tank and move it to China, as has happened.

Russia can afford the inf and money because Germany has 6-8 fewer IPCs a turn and doesn’t have the fighter from Romania.

I think the mod makes the gameboard more fun, frankly. China and Africa are contested and Russia is much more flexible. The one problem is that Germany might be a touch weak, but that’s made up for by the strength of Italy, which can become a real player at 12-14 IPCs by turn 3 if some battles go their way.

@PGsquig

I think you’re right that this mod may tilt the game more towards the Allies. If that became a problem, I think the solution would be to move the Ukraine bomber from the LH 3.0 patch back to Germany.

But I don’t think the Allies have a real advantage. The problem for the Allies mostly shifts from keeping Russia alive to keeping the UK active.

Yes, Russia starts at 24 and Germany starts at 34, so Russia has a real shot of pushing back against Germany. The Russian Front is much more contested.

BUT! Italy is a problem for the UK real fast.

• Egypt falls turn 1.
• UK’s India fleet can’t attack Italy through the Suez and those boats are needed against Japan anyway.
• Italy can take Trans-Jordan on round 2 fairly easily so that’s -4 IPCs for the UK (Egypt, Italian East Africa, and T-J). The UK really has to build in S. Africa to prevent a total loss of all of Africa (9-10 total IPCs). All of this means Germany can be less concerned about losing Norway/N. Europe/France.
• If things get too bad for Germany, Italy can always help defend Germany as well

Regarding KJF, I think the mod shows its value in really allowing for a KJF strategy. In my experience, even with the LH patch, it’s just too easy for Germany to overrun Russia, forcing the US to go KGF. Letting China place inf makes it worthwhile for Russia and the UK to defend China, and Russia can afford to redirect the Far East inf because it isn’t verging on total collapse at virtually every turn.

Would love to hear if you have any first impressions on whether the bomber in Ukraine should be moved back to Germany to give Ger more early-round flexibility.

@PGsquig

I agree that moving the German bomber would be nice, but Britain needs its North Sea navy to survive since rebuilding it while fighting in Africa and India would be too expensive. Moving the UK destroyer from sz17 to sz6 helps keep the UK navy alive, which I found is really important.

There’s no good territory to put the German bomber where it will survive, but it can’t hit sz7.

If the bomber was moved to Germany, I think giving Russia a bomber and moving the British cruiser in sz13 to sz7 might be required to ensure some of the UK navy survives Germany’s first turn.

FWIW, Russia has more room to adopt an offensive stance since the difference between it and Germany is only 10 IPCs rather than the typical 15-20. If the dice rolls go well, Russia could save a few IPCs and buy a bomber around Round 3-4. I’ll have to try this, but I imagine it would be possible!

@PGsquig

Great questions - I’m glad you’re intrigued! I prefer house rules that leave the board as-is, so I haven’t played it with any changes to Italy’s IPC count. This means Italy can only place 3 units a turn. I think this lines up historically and prevents Italy from spamming inf against Russia.

In fact, Italy hasn’t become a huge player on the Russian front. In my mod, you can’t move through neutral Turkey (sz16 to sz 17). This means Italy has to go through Ukraine or Persia to directly attack Russia.

Italy can help defend Germany in France, Morocco, and Ukraine, but I’ve found Italy mostly attacks in Africa and the Middle East. As an aside, this makes a US landing in Morroco much more sensible than in the OOB version since hitting North Africa alleviates the pressure on the UK. In general, Africa is just so much more engaged.

China has lasted until turn 3 every time I’ve played because Russia sends help. Russia sends infantry over to protect Sinkiang, and China is guaranteed to place 2 inf in Round 1 & 2. Most of the time, Russia has sent 3-4 inf to Sinkiang Round 1, and China can build in Szechwan. In one KJF game, China lasted almost the entire game.

Without Soviet help, China would fall faster obviously, but Russia needs to support China so Japan can’t open up a second Russian front.

Also, I guess I didn’t even think about having the German bomber in Libya.

That might be a good compromise. I’ll have to play with it that way, but it would help Germany retain offensive firepower without putting Britain’s northern navy in too much harm’s way right at the beginning!

@PGsquig

The U.S. is in an interesting position with this mod. Sometimes a KJF strategy makes more sense when China and the UK get good rolls.

Going KGF, though, I typically see the U.S. fleet in sz10 to setup a convoy into France. In our games with this mod, the UK fleet sits in sz8 (the UK drops an empty CA, which the US then supplies with fighters), and the US/UK hit France and N.W. Europe. We use the LH 3.0 setup, so Germany has lost its bomber and doesn’t have the fighter it lost to Italy in Romania.

Operation Torch has made sense in our KGF games if Italy starts putting too much pressure on the IC in S. Africa. In that game, the US landed 4 units in Morocco, which took a lot of the pressure off.

As a side note, this is why I think it’s useful to limit Italy to 3 units of production! With just two transports, the US can “outproduce” Italy, which can be super helpful in balancing the African theater.

@Imperious-Leader @SuperbattleshipYamato

Absolutely correct, the Italian position under this revision wouldn’t line up with Italy’s situation in 1942. Maybe it’s better not to have them start with Italian East Africa, but I like the idea that Italy can get up to 10 by taking Egypt on Round 1.

As a side note, the relative weakness of China in both the OOB and the Larry Harris 3.0 versions is pretty ahistorical and has always kinda bugged me. I think this modestly helps make the Chinese position feel more realistic.

Either way, the idea is mainly to ensure Africa and China are fuller theatres of war while also allowing for more KJF optionality.

@PGsquig

I don’t know if @Imperious-Leader is saying he doesn’t like the rules (at least not yet), only that they’re not historically accurate, which is true.

I would love to hear IL’s thoughts on this setup!

@PGsquig

I don’t know if @Imperious-Leader is saying he doesn’t like the rules (at least not yet), only that they’re not historically accurate, which is true.

I would love to hear IL’s thoughts on this setup!

@Imperious-Leader @SuperbattleshipYamato

Absolutely correct, the Italian position under this revision wouldn’t line up with Italy’s situation in 1942. Maybe it’s better not to have them start with Italian East Africa, but I like the idea that Italy can get up to 10 by taking Egypt on Round 1.

As a side note, the relative weakness of China in both the OOB and the Larry Harris 3.0 versions is pretty ahistorical and has always kinda bugged me. I think this modestly helps make the Chinese position feel more realistic.

Either way, the idea is mainly to ensure Africa and China are fuller theatres of war while also allowing for more KJF optionality.

@PGsquig

The U.S. is in an interesting position with this mod. Sometimes a KJF strategy makes more sense when China and the UK get good rolls.

Going KGF, though, I typically see the U.S. fleet in sz10 to setup a convoy into France. In our games with this mod, the UK fleet sits in sz8 (the UK drops an empty CA, which the US then supplies with fighters), and the US/UK hit France and N.W. Europe. We use the LH 3.0 setup, so Germany has lost its bomber and doesn’t have the fighter it lost to Italy in Romania.

Operation Torch has made sense in our KGF games if Italy starts putting too much pressure on the IC in S. Africa. In that game, the US landed 4 units in Morocco, which took a lot of the pressure off.

As a side note, this is why I think it’s useful to limit Italy to 3 units of production! With just two transports, the US can “outproduce” Italy, which can be super helpful in balancing the African theater.

Also, I guess I didn’t even think about having the German bomber in Libya.

That might be a good compromise. I’ll have to play with it that way, but it would help Germany retain offensive firepower without putting Britain’s northern navy in too much harm’s way right at the beginning!

@PGsquig

Great questions - I’m glad you’re intrigued! I prefer house rules that leave the board as-is, so I haven’t played it with any changes to Italy’s IPC count. This means Italy can only place 3 units a turn. I think this lines up historically and prevents Italy from spamming inf against Russia.

In fact, Italy hasn’t become a huge player on the Russian front. In my mod, you can’t move through neutral Turkey (sz16 to sz 17). This means Italy has to go through Ukraine or Persia to directly attack Russia.

Italy can help defend Germany in France, Morocco, and Ukraine, but I’ve found Italy mostly attacks in Africa and the Middle East. As an aside, this makes a US landing in Morroco much more sensible than in the OOB version since hitting North Africa alleviates the pressure on the UK. In general, Africa is just so much more engaged.

China has lasted until turn 3 every time I’ve played because Russia sends help. Russia sends infantry over to protect Sinkiang, and China is guaranteed to place 2 inf in Round 1 & 2. Most of the time, Russia has sent 3-4 inf to Sinkiang Round 1, and China can build in Szechwan. In one KJF game, China lasted almost the entire game.

Without Soviet help, China would fall faster obviously, but Russia needs to support China so Japan can’t open up a second Russian front.

@PGsquig

I agree that moving the German bomber would be nice, but Britain needs its North Sea navy to survive since rebuilding it while fighting in Africa and India would be too expensive. Moving the UK destroyer from sz17 to sz6 helps keep the UK navy alive, which I found is really important.

There’s no good territory to put the German bomber where it will survive, but it can’t hit sz7.

If the bomber was moved to Germany, I think giving Russia a bomber and moving the British cruiser in sz13 to sz7 might be required to ensure some of the UK navy survives Germany’s first turn.

FWIW, Russia has more room to adopt an offensive stance since the difference between it and Germany is only 10 IPCs rather than the typical 15-20. If the dice rolls go well, Russia could save a few IPCs and buy a bomber around Round 3-4. I’ll have to try this, but I imagine it would be possible!

@PGsquig

I think you’re right that this mod may tilt the game more towards the Allies. If that became a problem, I think the solution would be to move the Ukraine bomber from the LH 3.0 patch back to Germany.

But I don’t think the Allies have a real advantage. The problem for the Allies mostly shifts from keeping Russia alive to keeping the UK active.

Yes, Russia starts at 24 and Germany starts at 34, so Russia has a real shot of pushing back against Germany. The Russian Front is much more contested.

BUT! Italy is a problem for the UK real fast.

• Egypt falls turn 1.
• UK’s India fleet can’t attack Italy through the Suez and those boats are needed against Japan anyway.
• Italy can take Trans-Jordan on round 2 fairly easily so that’s -4 IPCs for the UK (Egypt, Italian East Africa, and T-J). The UK really has to build in S. Africa to prevent a total loss of all of Africa (9-10 total IPCs). All of this means Germany can be less concerned about losing Norway/N. Europe/France.
• If things get too bad for Germany, Italy can always help defend Germany as well

Regarding KJF, I think the mod shows its value in really allowing for a KJF strategy. In my experience, even with the LH patch, it’s just too easy for Germany to overrun Russia, forcing the US to go KGF. Letting China place inf makes it worthwhile for Russia and the UK to defend China, and Russia can afford to redirect the Far East inf because it isn’t verging on total collapse at virtually every turn.

Would love to hear if you have any first impressions on whether the bomber in Ukraine should be moved back to Germany to give Ger more early-round flexibility.

Thanks for your response @Witt!

So I have played this a few times, and China can really stunt Japan’s growth, especially early. I think the mod has real legs, especially since it allows Russia to stand up to Germany a bit more since Germany’s IPC total is at least 7 IPCs lower.

The turns seem to go:

• Italy takes Egypt
• China places two inf in either Szechwan or Yunnan.
• Russia does the typical 9/12 and moves inf from Evenki, Novosibirsk, and Kazakh into Sinkiang. China is now pretty strong defensively.
• Germany loses its Ukraine plane(s) and also gave up a fighter to Italy so it can’t threaten the UK navy nearly as well.

The UK has options, esp. in the East where China is pretty safe. I’ve played it where the cruiser and CA kill the boats in sz61. The UK trans stops in 36 and drops off two inf from India, which is combined with an attack from Burma (incl. the additional art) and the fighter from the CA.

This puts Japan immediately on its heels. It can take out the UK fleet easily and will take Anhwei, but China can drop another 2 inf in Szechwan next turn, and the Russian inf from the far east can pour into Sinkiang. Very fun to see Russia buy a tank and move it to China, as has happened.

Russia can afford the inf and money because Germany has 6-8 fewer IPCs a turn and doesn’t have the fighter from Romania.

I think the mod makes the gameboard more fun, frankly. China and Africa are contested and Russia is much more flexible. The one problem is that Germany might be a touch weak, but that’s made up for by the strength of Italy, which can become a real player at 12-14 IPCs by turn 3 if some battles go their way.

Longtime A&A player and reader, but a first-time poster.

I see two structural problems with 1942 SE. First, Africa is often uncontested. Second, China can be overrun pretty quickly. This leads to often predictable gameplay.

Couldn’t the 1942 SE 3.0 setup be retrofitted to play more like Anniversary (or G40) by adding Italy and China as minor players?

The mod would look something like:
Italy controls Italy, Southern Europe, Libya, Algeria, and Italian East Africa. (8 IPCs)
Add Italian inf to Italian East Africa.
Move fighter from Bulgaria/Romania to Southern Europe and make it Italian.
Add an Italian destroyer to sz 15.

Move the UK destroyer from sz 17 to sz 6.
Move UK fighter from Egypt to South Africa
Add IC to South Africa
Add inf and art to South Africa
Add art to Burma

No access from sz 17 to sz 16.

China can place inf at 2 IPC/inf anywhere in China. Chinese forces can only venture into Manchuria and Kiangsu. For Chinese territories that start under Japan’s control, the UK and the US get the IPCs if they take these territories.

The turn order would go: China, Italy, Russia, Germany, UK, Japan, US. This way, China can immediately place 2 inf and Italy can immediately put pressure on Egypt.

It seems like this would significantly open up the board. Italy makes life more difficult for Britain in the West, but having China makes their job easier in the East. Germany getting less money also helps Russia, which may give them more opportunity to counterattack.

What do you all think of this kind of modification?