U-Boat Positioning on G2

I like to buy a carrier and move my subs out to sea zone seven. I also use the other Atlantic sub to take out the UK cruiser in the med as I hate losing planes and recently lost two and had to retreat. Last time I tried this, the UK player went for a round one drop off in karelia and didn’t buy navy because I was in striking range and he doesn’t like to wait to build up. I was able to trap him there and take him out. When he finally decided to save enough moeny for a navy (41) it was round six and I was making 50 ipcs as GER. I wound up buying 7 transports (already had 2) and took out England next round. It was my one of my favorite victories because Japan had just gotten pushed off the coast, with their Navy about to be destroyed.

I’ve had exactly this same situation as well. Germany brings in 1 Sub, 1 Ftr and 1 Bmbr. Defending are the UK BB and Soviet Sub. The German Sub chooses not to submerge. The Sov Sub chooses not to submerge. The Ger Sub fires its surprise strike and hits. The Sov Sub will also fire its surprise strike - let’s say it misses. I believe it would be wiser for the defenders to take Germany’s hit on the Sov sub because the German Ftr and Bmbr cannot hit the Sub (no defending Destroyer present). With the opening fire stage over, it’s now the Luftwaffe vs the Royal Navy.

But to answer your question, I think both Submarines are allowed to surprise strike before hits are assigned. Krieghund, is this correct? I know that a defending Destroyer would prevent defending surface warships from being sunk before they could return fire, but what about defending Submarines? Can they still fire back or are they wiped out before they get the chance?

Many thanks.

I believe habs4life9 is correct in that the defending sub would also be able to return fire even if the German sub scored a hit.  Paragraph 3 on page 17…“Once all attacking and defending submarines that conducted a surprise strike attack have fired, the casualties they have generated are removed from the game and this step is over.”  So there is always that 1/6 chance Germany loses its fodder on the first round due to the russian sub.  Why is it that it seems that russian sub always hits when I am Germany?  I scored a hit with my sub but his sub hit too, 1 hit with the bomber and fighter missed, battleship hit.  My bomber hits and his battleship hits again…figures.

@habs4life9:

And since the decision not to submerge but to fire has already been made, I think Russia’s sub still gets a die to roll even if the U-boat hits and the sub is assigned as the casualty. But I’m not entirely sure about it…

The Russian sub still fires a shot if the hit from the German sub is assigned to it. Any ones participating on the Surprise Strike always fire.

But if there was a German destroyer present then the Russian sub would fire on General Combat. If the German sub fired and hit and the casualty was assigned to the Russian sub then it would be removed immediately and not fire during general combat.

I like to put my subs in Sz7.  Putting your destoyer in Sz3 playes into the hands of the British I feel.  Leaving your DD in Sz5 means the British cannot attack it with fighters then land them in Sz2.  But it does mean they can attack it with fighters then land them in Wru for an attack on the germany navy in Sz15 on Britain 2.  Britain purchases a bomber on B1, gets airforce in position to hit Sz15, 2 bombers and 2 fighters for sure.

Putting the DD in Sz 7 means fighters can attack it then land in Sz2 but not attack it then be in position to attack the german BB in the Med.  It also makes it harder for an attack on Weu if any british transports live.

If you could have attacked his navy with 3 subs, 1 bomber and 2 fighters you would have had the advantage, over a 75% chance of winning, with 3 fighters it would have been a huge missed opportunity.  Landing a fighter in Norway that could have landed in Weu and attack Sz8 might not have been the better move, UNLESS you built a bomber on G1.  Then, you have 2 bombers, 1 fighter in Norway that can all hit Sz8.  2 bombers, 1 fighter and 3 subs wins over 80% against 2 DD, 1 CV and 2 Ftrs, moreover, leaving the DD in Sz5 means England can’t really attack it and land fighters in Sz2.

If Germany builds a bomber on G1, positions its subs in Sz7, fighters on Weu and maybe 1 in Norway, then England does NOT build navy on B1.  They build 1 bomber only and wait for the new american builds to then mobve to Sz8.

I think that if you don’t send the sub to Z2, it should attack the US fleet. That gives you 50/50 of killing 26 IPCs worth of ships as opposed to the 100% of killing 1 transport.
In your case now, I would attack. I am just that way  :-P

@MrMalachiCrunch:

If Germany builds a bomber on G1, positions its subs in Sz7, fighters on Weu and maybe 1 in Norway, then England does NOT build navy on B1.  They build 1 bomber only and wait for the new american builds to then mobve to Sz8.

The trick is that the UK has 2 locations to safely build its navy, SZ2 and SZ8 and it might be impossible for G to cover both. If G lands its fighters on W. Eur then SZ2 should be clear, the same for Norway and SZ8.
If G has 2 ftrs, 2 subs and 2 bmrs to attack SZ8 and the Allies have 2 DDs, 1 sub, 1 AC, 1 CA and 2 fighters then the odds are for the Allies: 56% defender + 7% draw (since the transports will still be alive). G really needs a 3rd fighter/sub or to sink the Russian sub for the odds to be favorable to sink that fleet.
And to sink a UK fleet on SZ2 G will need 2 ftrs, 2 subs and 2 bmbrs. Just 1 ftr will not be enough (30% win, 10% draw, 60% loss) and even if the R sub is sunk the odds don’t get that better (50% win, 10% draw, 40% loss).
So, in order to prevent/sink any allied fleets on both SZ2/8 G needs 9 units: 2 bombers, 4/5 ftrs and 2/3 subs. 1 of its 6 starting fighters is killed on R1 and another is used on Egypt and lands on Libya, so that leaves only 4 ftrs and 3 subs, of which 1 or more is usually killed on the SZ13/SZ2 attacks on G1, preventing G from covering both SZ2/8.

Of course, G can buy 2 bombers on G1 but that would still require 1 ftr on Norway and 2 on W. Eur. for good odds of sinking fleets on both locations (or the 3rd sub). Or G could get just 1 bomber and an AC for the Baltic and land 2 ftrs there. With a 3rd ftr on W. Eur. it would also be able to hit either SZ. But such a buy can make things very hard against Russia.

I decided to redo the calcs regarding the SZ2/8 battles on G2, trying out different outcomes for losses on G1, and assuming that Germany will buy 1 bomber on G1.

1. SZ2

Russian sub survives G1

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
33.1% win, 66.9% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
68.5% win, 31.5% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
63.2% win, 36.8% loss

Russian sub destroyed G1

Germany: 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
27.3% win, 71.8% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
58% win, 42% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
81.6% win, 18.4% loss

2. SZ8

Russian sub survives G1

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
36% win, 64% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
60.3% win, 39.7% loss

Germany: 3 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
69.2% win, 30.8% loss

Russian sub destroyed G1

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
26.1% win, 73.9% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
60.5% win, 39.5% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
80.7% win, 19.3% loss