Religion, Why?

No, but you do need the concept to have life after death. Without that, what is the point to even living?

I do not believe that. Death is the end.

How do you rationalize believing in such low probabilities that everything came about the way it did based on random processes?

How can you believe Nature has human trait like intelligence and conscience ?

Yes I would. And God has asked for this to be done in the past. He asked Abraham to do it.

Incredible

And Atheists are “evil”

Even if you are not religious, there are many reasons for “waiting” until marriage for sex. Nevermind the STD’s, cervical cancer, children (but wait - we can pre-emptively kill those), but there is (or can be) a lot of meaning attached to the concept of sex. Of course if i go around sticking my dick into everything, then the meaning diminishes. Now it’s just a way to kiss off an hour or two with some woman i just met.

Honestly, i don’t care about what other are doing in their bedroom, if you prefer not to have sex outside marriage, it’s ok, i just don’t think it’s a question of morality. Personaly, i won’t, to use your expression, “kiss off an hour or two with some woman i just met”, but when you’re with a girl you love for some time i don’t see any problem.

Also FS - w/ regards to your stats, i’m curious as to their origen, and to what degree Christian divorcees consider themselves to be Christian (i.e. merely paying lip-service to something they don’t believe in anymore, as with their marriage vows).

I really don’t remember where i get that, but you can found the same information on;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac.htm#div

@FinsterniS:

Yes you’re right, we can do whatever we like, but we, humanity, create a soceity with rules so we survive. I have my own judgement, i can judge what i think is human, what i think is’nt human, i don’t say, “hey, that’s the truth”, i just use my jugement. Also i won’t create a God just because i need someone to support my belief, i can defend myself alone, and as there is no reason, no logical reason from my point of view, to believe in God, then i would’nt, and my logical reasoning is the most objective as possible, i won’t accept god because i respect my parent and they does believe in him, and i won’t accept him just because i need a guide and a short answer for everything, i reject the concept because it’s irrational. If the concept was rational, and there’s was sign that our “creator” whant X and Y, then i’ll think of it, but it’s not the case, and even you say “hey it’s stupid we can do everything”, it’s not an argument for god, it’s an argument for the usefulness* of god, it does’nt mean he exist. Anyway, humans are killing other humans with god or without god, we saw that in Soviet Russia, in World War 2, in Israel, everywhere… By Christians, Atheist, Jews, Yellow, Black, White and Red people.

Use your own mind ! You choose to follow a religion, you choose to follow a set of rules. There is no difference between your choise of embracing the set of rules of Judaism, and my choice of choosing my own set of rule. If you don’t sleep with other women just because of God, then you don’t know what is love. If you don’t kill because of god, then you don’t know what’s a social conscience. Sorry but your “in a atheist world” is a non-sence, Atheist are not more or less cheating on each other, in the US the divorce rate is 23% vs 27% for the Christians. You are blind if you believe you cannot have a sence of ethic without god. Our life are ruled by the soceity, by ourself, by the human race and it’s evolution, these are the rules, and it’s also ruled by religion. NO there is no rewards, i don’t need the concept of heaven to be gentle with the people i like.

If God ask you to kill a child, would you do it ? Don’t say “he would’nt do that”, just answer, IF he ask you this, would you do it ?

You’re saying I am blind? Look who’s saying “these are the rules”. Why are they the rules? Explain to me why! Sex can harm a person too. There’s a certain useless sack in the woman’s sexual organs (CC remind me of the name) that tears if hte woman is active or it can occur during sex. What if she is hurt? Then you are committing a crime! Stealing from someone doenst hurt them, they dont feel any physical pain so that’s fine. Now if yo usay emotional pain, then am I only allowed one lover? I mean, if I try to break up with them that will hurt them emotionally. Use your brain! Humans have no rules to their behaviour. Without that sense of God that has always existed, which has been our moral compass, we would do whatever we liked whenever we liked. We would still be those savages that ate everything in their path. Explain to me why these are the rules! Why shoudl we follow these and not other rules. If there is nothing to keep us in check, then there is no reason to follow those rules. If I choose to kill a person, that is my choice. Who are you to judge me? You’re my equal. Why is what I’m doing wrong? Murder is something I enjoy and I made sure the other person didnt feel any pain. So why should I be punished? Be logical. You are trying to say that one is a crime and the other isn’t. There are no crimes if God does not exist because humans decide everything and if I decide I want to murder, you have no right ot tell me it’s wrong. Not you or anyone else because we all have the choice.

What’s love FinsterniS? Describe for me how it works, what are the causes, symptoms and how to deal with it. Is love rational? Certainly not. Then why do you believe in love and not in God? Both cannot be proven scientifically and both cannot be seen, but only felt and followed. What is a conscience? It’s the sense of right and wrong. But there is no defintion of right and wrong without something to guide the universe, and the Athiest proposal is that ntohing runs the universe, which means there is no guide, and therefore no ethics. Whatever a person chooses is right. BTW, your statistic proved my point. 2% versus 23% is a big difference. I’m not arguing for Christianity because I dont know their laws and how they work.

fin - first thing i read was:
Truthfulness: Poll data on religious behavior and practice are notoriously unreliable. Individuals often describe their own behavior inaccurately; they answer questions according to what they think they should be doing.

Just like i said - people paying lipservice.

A quick scan shows this must be one of the funniest threads ever – we got adultery & idolatry, we got malise (does that rhyme with valise, Yanny?) or do we mean malice – and we got afterlife. But I ain’t got time to read it right now, so I’ll just fire off this:

afterlife, shmafterlife. THIS is life. Make rules for the here and now, and the generations to come, with respect and astonishment for the generations who came before. Do we really have any say on what happens in the afterdeath?

while we’re chillin here on Planet Oit we may as well take comfort & awe in the mystical miracle of consiousness… take inspiration from this mother nature here, and take instruction from her wondrous, vast and intricate balancing

Oh, and while we’re at it - - create! Respect yer mother, be nice to your girlfren, and act with honor (honor is its own reward) – let me just aim at that first couple of points Yanny - - the Bible in 2 sentences “Be good. If you do, your afterlife will be great.” What a load of lard. It should read “Be good. If you do, your life and the lives of those around you will be better.” But no – there had to be a sales job about some always unprovable Great Reward. THIS is the reward: the sunrise, the sunset, the little boids singin their freakin little lungs out, and shitting all over my Honda. More power to em. I should loin where to park bettah.
…

And furthermore, Falwell is a lying sack of **** – who needs this creep?
OK now I’ve taken the time to read yer account of the Donahue show. (you sucked me into it!) Interesting. Donahue is in an all-out quest to save this show, for which the ratings were subzero. Bully for him to decide, judging from the exchange you relate, to just go for it and really say what’s on his mind to one of his least favorite persons.

You know what they say about agnostics – well a dyslexic agnostic insomniac is someone who lies awake all night doubting the existence of Dog.

Cheers

Hey Yanny,

No time now to read the whole screed, but I did read your introductory remarks. Stern stuff indeed. Well, as to your sum-up, comparing people living in fear of Hitler to people living in fear of God.

Hmm. Perhaps the great challenge is to live apart from fear.

Whyfore we need a solitary figurehead to embody all evil and danger?
Why deliver power to such an actual living figure by going along with his system?
In the good ol USofA, we have our figureheads, our strongmen, etc. – but we live in arguably the most revolutionary society – and we have the much-struggled-for freedom of speech, where we can undercut the presumed authority of such supermen. We can openly satirize, criticize, counterhypothesize: in short, we can comport ourselves as adults. The increasingly widespread ability and capacity for people to do this is something new in human affairs, it seems to me.

to probably misquote Mark Twain: “No dictator can withstand the assault of laughter”

@cystic:

i go around sticking my dick into everything, you get it on with every skirt.

LOL

Emugod- I rarely get a chance over here in the USA to fly over to the Middle East and sit in on a Religious Leaders’ propaganda rantings. Be realistic, do you really think the Jews and Muslims would be fighting this long if their leaders (religious leaders) said not to? Do you really think all the wars and killing are done by the extremists only? Of course I have no examples of preaching, be serious. Who’s ordering all the killing?

I think your confusing atheism and anarchism. Few atheists want no laws or punishments. Again, be realistic, we all have an investment in society. The only laws there are are MAN’s, they’re the ones that put you in jail for being bad. Man needs to keep society and civilization going, stop killing in the name of your Gods…

First; EmuGod my intervention was’nt about god existence but about the relagion between Religion and Sex/Morality/Liberty. Second; Most of the thing you said like “Humans have no rules to their behaviour. Without that sense of God that has always existed, which has been our moral compass, we would do whatever we liked whenever we liked.”, you are just making abstraction of Sociology and Anthropology, theory exist about Social Evolution without using the concept of god.

“You are trying to say that one is a crime and the other isn’t.” = Sex is hurting nobody, like Yanny said; “No one is forcing the woman to have sex. Its a crime otherwise”. It’s not a crime what people do in their bedroom if it hurt nobody. It’s not of my business, nor it’s your business or “god”'s business.

“There are no crimes if God does not exist because humans decide everything and if I decide I want to murder, you have no right ot tell me it’s wrong” = it’s an insult to human achievement, we build a lot, a society with rules, theses rules are for our survival, it’s more complex than “right” and “wrong”.

“Why shoudl we follow these and not other rules” = Because these rules are what make our society live, we should’nt be there is this was pure chaos, our achievement as a soceity is the result of certain rules. And you will follow it either because you have a conscience (destroying the life of someone is useless and horrible), or because you fear jail (i wish it’s not that).

… and sure something runs the universe; i just don’t give this thing an human personalities. It’s the only difference, you have to give nature “intelligence”, “consience”, i don’t need those anthropomorphisms. Sure something guide the universe, otherwise it would be chaos you are right; but this things is’nt human, it has no human trait, it’s not intelligent, it’s not conscience, it’s nature, it’s inhuman. With Social Evolution we can understand why our soceity has a certain order. And with Natural Law we can understand why the universe is’nt pure chaos. There’s nothing mystical if you take the time to read about social and natural science.

What’s love FinsterniS? Describe for me how it works, what are the causes, symptoms and how to deal with it. Is love rational? Certainly not.

When someone love he is irrational, but “love” itself is a scientific concept. A neurologist or a psychologis could explain you better than i can how it work. But what i know is that i don’t need a menace of a commendement to be loyal.

And about my stats CC i dont think it’s from a pool, i will ask the guy at religioustolerance.com he probably know. Because you are right pool are’nt always accurate.

Well, my point of view on religion is this:

Religion is just a way to create power over other human beings. Religion is a fraud.

There are numerous of bad things about religion:

It keeps pushing women.

It talks against it self.

It creates disorder.

Crusades.

War, most wars today have some religious fact behind it. For example, both Bush and bin Laden claims to have the power of God behind them. And in one way, they both have. That’s the sick thing. Still, they both disgrace their own religions. Not the Christian God nor Allah wants a war.

To many people have lost their life because they did something against some other peoples religion. Mostly because the church (or whatever) want to remain its power over the stupid foes.

I can’t think of too many good things about religion acctually, here are the only things:

It gives people hope. Many people have survived hard times thanks to their fate.

It can unite people.

As a conclusion, I just want to say that religion today, in the most civilised countries are unnecessary, it’s just a way to remain the power over the people.
But in countries with wars, hard times etc, religion can be good to help people survive and fight for a better society. It’s when the bad times turn into hate with the help of religion by evil mad mans with power, it turns into something wrong and bad. That’s when extremists like Bush and bin Laden abuse religion.

The only religions I don’t see too much wrong with is Buddhism, and maybe Hinduism. Mostly Buddhism because they don’t have a God. Buddhism is more of a way to live, a lifestyle.

Well, Chaos, those are the points one might make were they a-religious/atheistic, etc. It is possible that people who are religious, or “spiritual” may have many other reasons for religion, outside of it’s utility as a war-enhancing mechanism.
And don’t kid yourself. There is a lot more going on than simply Allah vs. Jehovah. It would be nice if it were that simple. Religion may have the purest aspirations, the greatest hope, and may help people be in touch with God. Like with any good thing, it may be corrupted. A knife in a chef’s hands, a car in use of meal-on-wheels, the hammer in the hands of a carpenter, charisma in a person of good will seeking to make positive changes in society, so easily may be a knife in the hands of a theif, a car in the hands of a drunk, the hammer in the hands of a mafia enforcer, charisma in a German painter.
Any tool used for greatness, used in love, creating beauty may be perverted by evil forces.
Finally you left out many “good things about religion” that we religious people find handy. It is difficult to make one appreciate these however.

Chaos, Religion is used often as a pretext for violence, but it is not the religion encouraging violence, the perpetratours look for an excuse.

For example, the religious wars in europe occured because the nobles wanted an excuse to seize church land, and to seize other noble’s land.

evil forces

What’s that, socialism, atheism, humanism, science, evolutionism ? What does that eat in winter, an evil force ?

Yanny, they do not follow because of religion, they follow because the leaders unite them through hate/desperation for loot.

ButtDude, it seems to me tis all of the above. I appreciate yer cynicism, that people follow raving bastards for their own selfish, pragmatic reasons (i.e., the loot) – but I guess in many cases lots of people just get swept up in an emotional, spiritual or whatever kind of ferment or fervor, believing in their own righteousness – or believing in their badness… at that moment it likely makes little difference. They become part of a greater animus… the mob. Can this be sustained beyond a fired-up bonfire moment? Sure. Desperation, as you point out, has plenty to do with it. So does routine.

The function of orthopraxy: when people are bent, or bend themselves, not to a set of ideas, words and beliefs (orthodoxy), but to a set of ACTIONS. Once masses of people are involved in a set of habitual actions (pick any: doing the nine-to-five thing – buying breakfast cereal in branded boxes in chain supermarkets you visit by car – marching in ranks and singing national fighting anthems – running through life with cell phone glued to ear – voting along party lines – not voting at all – etc.) once people are committed to such habitual actions, then they will adopt various convenient REASONS or rationales or theories or ideologies… to explain the consequences of these actions, and even to explain WHY they perform these actions in the first place. Nine times out of ten, the person prefers a quick, convenient, canned rationale. (Insert ideology, theology, philosophy, etc. here.)

Such rationales can be perfectly straightforward and common-sense: “I have to make money and save up so my kids can make it to a better college.”
Other rationales can be absurd or mystical or untestable for most practical purposes available to the average person: “We have to strip minority X of their property because our religious leaders say they are filthy devils.”

Anyway, don’t take my word for it; for further reflection, read about it in “Propagandas” or anything else written by Jacques Ellul.

The function of orthopraxy: when people are bent, or bend themselves, not to a set of ideas, words and beliefs (orthodoxy), but to a set of ACTIONS. Once masses of people are involved in a set of habitual actions (pick any: doing the nine-to-five thing – buying breakfast cereal in branded boxes in chain supermarkets you visit by car – marching in ranks and singing national fighting anthems – running through life with cell phone glued to ear – voting along party lines – not voting at all – etc.) once people are committed to such habitual actions, then they will adopt various convenient REASONS or rationales or theories or ideologies… to explain the consequences of these actions, and even to explain WHY they perform these actions in the first place. Nine times out of ten, the person prefers a quick, convenient, canned rationale. (Insert ideology, theology, philosophy, etc. here.)

Hmmm… that’s was actual something pretty profound :)

What’s that, socialism, atheism, humanism, science, evolutionism ? What does that eat in winter, an evil force ?

I guess Communism is in the clear… 8)

Communism isn’t in the clear, Moses, its just that “evil force” is not a vile enough word to describe the sadistic nature of communism. :)