We should not attack Iraq

Good show Emu.

@Yanny:

Yassar Arafat has been elected twice. Once after the Oslo accords and once just a few months ago.

Either A) End the Occupation or B) Grant these “Foreign” citizens Israeli citizenship.

Diplomacy is about compromise. Your opinion wants everything.

The Palestinians received TWO offers giving them almost everything they wanted, one at Camp David and one at Taba.

The Taba Offer included:

-100% of Gaza
-95% of West Bank
-other 5% made up of ISraeli negev
-East Jerusalem
-Settlements removed

THe Palestinians REJECTED this offer because they don’t actually want a country. Check out what I posted on the other thread about things going bump in the night. The quotations there by British, American, Arab and even Palestinian leaders proves their true intentions.

I can see why letting Israel control the military aspect would be a good idea. They are the best military in the region after all.

@Yanny:

A) That offer was never put in writing. It was more of a promise by Barak (although I believe he would of kept the offer)

B) The right of return was not granted. Millions of refugees would not be allowed to return to their homes.

C) The treaty would let Israel control all military affairs.

D) Israel would control all major resources (mainly everything concerning the Jordon River)

No Yanny, you don’t seem to understnad. They call one of these things a proposal? Can you say proposal? Yes, very good. It means that it would be the basis for a final agreement which could be worked out. But the Palestinians rejected it without even giving a counter offer. And what right to return home are you talking about? If you’re talking about letting them go to Israel, then forget it. If they’re getting their own country, why would they go to a foreign one? Militarily, Israel has to be safe which means checkpoints and other forms of protection. As for the resources in the Jordan River, there would be agreements made like the ones between Israel and Jordan that would help in sharing the resources. It was put down on paaper and all the delegates that were at Taba know about the offer. It’s not like Barak called Arafat over the phone and promised it to him then.

@Yanny:

The Right of Return, after Jerusalem it is the main issue in the debate. Basically, over half a million Palestinians were literally kicked out of their homes. The friend who was shot who I keep refering to, his family was kicked out. The Right of Return would allow anyone who can prove that they lived there to either return or be compensated for their property.

I do not think that they should be able to return and be able to kick out those living there now. However, they should be paid for their property and extra for being kicked out.

They weren’t kickedo ut. They left by choice when the ARabs asked them to over Arab radio so they could make room for invading Arab armies. I posted a whole post confirming this and other things in a different thread and you never responded to it. So I’ll prove to you that they weren’t kick out with these quotes:

“The Jews haven’t attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first.”
-Ismayil SAfwat, Commander of Palestinian Operations, MArch, 1948.

“We brought destruction upon the [Palestinian] refugees, by calling on them to leave their homes.”
-Khaled Al-Azam, Syrian Prime Minister in 1949 (memoirs, 1973)

Cold hard proof Yanny. You can’t argue against what even the Arabs said. You have to see this for what it really is. The Arabs are trying to re-write history.

@Yanny:

Two quotes aren’t proof.

Do you think millions of Palestinians would leave their homes for a Refugee camp? Ever seen pictures of one, picture HELL. Mud up to your Knees, no clean water. They have turned into a permanent residence for over a million.

Firstly, it was 472,000 of them and that’s a UN estimate. They were told that they would be going to the Arab countries for the duration of the war, and then they would return to their homes and get the Jewish villages as well.

Secondly, 550,000 Jews were kicked out of their homes in Gaza and the West Bank by the invading Arab armies. Should their descendants not recieve the same right of return?

Thirdly, the Arabs places them in UN funded cmaps. It wasnt exactly their chocie when they arrived in the Arab dictatorships.

@Yanny:

The Jews were kicked out thousands of years ago. Why the hell do they own the land today?

Btw, History repeats itself. The first case of “terrorism” was in fact in Israel during Roman times. The Israelites killed Roman leaders, tax collecters, and citizens and displayed their bodies on fenceposts.

You really have no idea what you’re talking about! And your answer is a desparate remark to try and save the Pro-Palestinian side that has n basis. They own the land because it is part of their culture and religion. They haven’t forgotten it. And dont forget that Jews lived there during the Roman exile, especially in East Jerusalem (before East JErusalem was created), Hebron, Sefat and Tiberias.

@Yanny:

Wow, my family was in Canada 80 years ago. You don’t see me heading to Montreal and demanding land.

Big friggin deal, some people thousands of years ago lived there. I don’t care about your culture, its not special. There are hundreds of cultures that lay claim to land from the past, they don’t get it. The Germans used the same excuse to take over Austria before WWII.

Look, the Jews aren’t different from any other culture. Don’t think your special. People are going to keep dieing from this stupid sense of pride Israel has. Just pull back! Its not that hard, the idiots who took up residence in the settlements would of left now if they had a brain.

Israel is causing the United States a lol of trouble. The problems are escalating at such a rate where millions could die, in the near future. If Israel would just end the occupation, the problem would be solved. This action would cause the moderate Arabs to have a voice again.

The problem with the Occupation is twofold. It gives the Extreme Arab leaders a cause, and support of the people. It also gives Extreme Israelis a cause, and support of the people, because of the actions of Extreme Arabs.

The real huge problem with this is its a cycle. An Extreme Arab action will be met with a more extreme Israeli action, which will be met with an even more extreme Arab action… and so on. If Israel really is a civilized state, it will notice this and stop it. Stop the useless retaliation, and end the occupation.

Besides the Chinese land claim to Siberia and the Native Peoples’ claims of land in the Americas, I know of NO OTHER culture that has ties to a place. It’s easy for you to say as an Anti-Semite. You’re telling the Jews to assimilate and to lose our culture, but we refuse to do so and that’s why you and the other anti-semites hate us. Becuase we won’t leave our traditions. No other nation has a historical place as part of its culture, those who did have given it up such as the Orthodox Church in Constantinople.

There is nothing that can be done about the cycle. Israel has no choice but to retaliate because if she does not, the terrorists will grow more confident and conduct more attacks believing that they cannot and will not be stopped. You cannot unilaterally withdraw from a place crawling with terrorists. Israel tried that when it pulled out of Lebanon and now the entire south of Lebanon is occupied by Hizballah. By unilaterally withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other terrorist groups will take over those areas.

I believe that the Palestinians should be given their own state, just to show the truth of how that is not their main goal and how they truly want eveyrthing. Even if Israel leaves, the attacks will not stop. I dont know what the solution is to end the violence, but I am not sure giving them a state will work.

As for your Canada analogy, you have hit the mark on the Palestinian claims to the land. They left by choice and now want to come back as though they never left. But they are trying to change history as well to suit their story.

@Yanny:

Big friggin deal, some people thousands of years ago lived there. I don’t care about your culture, its not special. There are hundreds of cultures that lay claim to land from the past, they don’t get it. The Germans used the same excuse to take over Austria before WWII.

Look, the Jews aren’t different from any other culture. Don’t think your special. People are going to keep dieing from this stupid sense of pride Israel has. Just pull back! Its not that hard, the idiots who took up residence in the settlements would of left now if they had a brain.

Israel is causing the United States a lol of trouble. The problems are escalating at such a rate where millions could die, in the near future. If Israel would just end the occupation, the problem would be solved. This action would cause the moderate Arabs to have a voice again.

Of course these are very easy things for a non-Jewish, American, friend-killed-by-an-Israeli things to say. I (obviously) am not Jewish, however i feel that i can, to a degree, relate to the Jewish experience - if only from extensive reading about the Jews and their history, and my attempts to put myself into their shoes (well, the shoes of a people with a similar history to the Jews in many respects).
Obviously as you are not a Jew you do not care anything for them, for if you were and if you did, then it might be more difficult for you to come by this point of view. Too often things are painted black and white, and occassionally this is done with only one perspective in mind. You do not have the same sense of history, culture, or the ideals of the Jewish people, and so you do not care or understand what is involved beyond your friend and subsequent incredulousness at the lengths that the US is going through to keep them alive and free in the middle east (never mind that Israel is in a very strategic position for the US government for many reasons and they would be a very handy ally).
Although i think that the Israeli government has made a lot of mistakes (apparently) I do have to back up Emugod with respect to his arguments and his sense of his people.

@Yanny:

They did not leave by choice.

I am not a friggin anti-semetic. I’m sorry if its hard for you to comprehend the fact that I don’t give a sh*t about the Jewish religion. I am mad at the Israelis, not their God.

You can learn your culture like everyone else does, in school! Ever been to America, thats how we do it here.

When you pulled out of Lebanon, the mortar shells stopped coming, did they not? Like I said, pulling out of Palestine will give the Moderates a chance. The terrorism will stop. Going in and retailiating uselessly is just inviting more attacks. We’re taught in Kindergarden here in America that two rights don’t make a wrong. The more mature person, or nation, should realise this.

Firstly, you are an anti-semite. You are telling the Jews to be Jewish in school and to not practice their religion. That’s classic anti-semitism. You are an anti-Zionist because you are against the state of Israel.

Secondly, the mortat shells in Lebanon are STILL firing to this very day. There are daily attempts by Hizballah terrorists in Southern Lebanon to try and attack Israel. Retaliating has to be done. What you’re saying is that Israel should just let its people die and the Arabs commit the mass genocide that they have wanted to for years.

Thirdly. THE DID LEAVE THEIR HOMES VOLUNTARILY! Is the word of the Syrian Prime Minister not enough for you? HE’s an Arab leader that called upon the Palestinians to leave and even admitted it in his memoirs.

You are being quite the fanatic. As Winston Churchill kindly put it for us, “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.”

@Yanny:

Israel is not in a Strategic position for us. We have Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Bahrain and Afganistan now.

I respect Jews as much as I respect any other ethnic group. They should not gain special privelages. Its kinda of like my policy on minorities in America.

No minority should have less rights than the majority. However, no laws should be made to give these minorities additional rights.

Your idea of not requiring more rights for minorities would be great in an ideal Utopia. Unfortunately, wihtout rights to protect them, the next Hitler would quickly start killing the Jews again.

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait aren’t on the United States’ side and neither is Afghanistan. They are temporarily with the United States until it eliminates IRaq which is currently their biggest fear.

Israel is very strategically located. It connects Africa and Asia together and some say it has some oil resources like the one found many years ago there.