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  • PantherP Panther moved this topic from Axis & Allies 1914

    1. This round robin starts with the USA, here I try to play the scenarios that the USA might win,
    2. Round Robin USA Versus Germany, etc.
    3. Here King & Queen are truly defense in this scenario, as an entire ocean separates the two powers. Given only a few rounds to let each side build up its navy for a Jutland type sea battle, here even if the Germans just barely squeak by with a naval victory, just a few transports left may not mean a winning invasion of the US East Coast.
    4. Much less if you do not have follow up transports with additional land forces on its way(of course the dice rolls may lead for a blowout for Germany, and, Germany wins with a sole trooper or two left, but, do not count on it).
    5. Again this could still lead to a military victory for Germany, even if the US fleet was not built up, or, went on a tour letting the Germany Navy chase it into the Pacific. The US could just instead build up its combine arms on the mainland(here a large air force could really harm any German fleet approaching the US East Coast). Any US counterattack would probably drive the Germans into the sea the first time. Eventually with 75% more income(US 20 & Germany 35) and enough rounds Germany could land so many troops, much less with follow up forces to assure an victory. Again so many rounds would pass, it would be in time for WWII to start. All you need is one German trooper to survive, thus not letting the US get twenty to buy more land units for the next round.
    6. Of course the US could just build up some naval forces, along with land forces, but, Germany would still probably win.
    7. Finally if the Germans stand down their navy and let US forces land early on the game into Germany, the Kaiser could do what he threaten to do to the British Army, just arrest them when they land. Fortress Germany is not a place for US forces to land into, not even landing in AH(Austria-Hungary is overflowing with troops, so USA versus just AH would probably lead to defeat for the USA, as AH has an edge in income).
    8. Now with any version of US versus any two CP(Central Powers), the economics of US versus Germany & AH(probably least rounds to be played), US versus Germany & Turkey(probably more rounds to be played), US versus AH & Turkey(somewhat in the middle). Here would be overwhelming income(20 USA income versus 61/51/42). Much less USA versus all of the Central Powers(20 USA versus 77, now that would be a quick game).
    9. Is there any scenario?, where even USA could win even a political victory(if you are not willing to play countless rounds for a full military victory), yes, U.S.A. versus Turkey, Round One…
    10. Pellulo

  • @Pellulo
    2.

    Before we go there let us see what happen exactly with USA versus German, the first four rounds are building phases, as USA builds up only its Navy to 2 BB(Battleship), 1 C(Cruiser), and, 7 submarines(also one fighter). The German fleet gets build up to 2 BB, 1 C, 4 submarines, 7 transports of a trooper and a gun(except one transport has a plane, not a gun), followed up by second wave of 2C & 3 subs., &, a transport of two troopers.

    Mine damage lose of a German sub. & damage a BB.

    Battle Sea Losses all US fleet, German lose 7 subs., 1 BB & 1 C. Land/air losses, USA all six troopers, 2 guns, &, one plane. Germans lose one fighter & three guns.

    Remember Germans need transports to load up on land units that are already there(no need to buy them). Germany wins.

    Now again USA versus Germany, here the US fleet goes to Africa, and, Germany sends two C & then later 2 subs. to trap the US Naval forces between them. The US spends its income on just land forces, to defend from sea invasion(Germans spend most of their income for transports and a C & a BB).

    Eventually USA forces build up to 2 planes, 21 troopers, and, 6 guns. The Germans lose two subs to mine damage, but, land a plane, 13 troopers, and, 4 guns(with one BB to protect the 9 transports, more being ordered back at home ports).

    Land battle with the US counterattack(so as not to have the east coast contested), all of its last units are lost. Both sides lose 2 infantry to defense shelling & BB shelling & Axis air dominates. The Germans losses are heavy, all that is left are 1 trooper, 1 plane, and, 4 guns. Germany wins.

    You can repeat the above games played with US versus Austria-Hungary, with some more rounds played as AH has an IPC of only 26. Even faster game of USA versus Germany & AH, or, Germany & Turkey, or, AH & Turkey. Finally the ultimate blowout of USA versus all three Central Powers(here the only choice is allot of cheap infantry, a few guns, maybe a plane or two).

    With gets us back to the only variation, where such puny US land forces, have a chance to win, USA versus Turkey. Thanks, Pellulo
    Pellulo


  • @Pellulo
    4.
    USA versus Turkey, not having a large land force(for defensive or invasion purposes), USA is force to build a larger navy(while building some troops/guns for defensive purposes). While Turkey already having a large land forces for an invasion, much less defense(has 3.66:1 in troops alone & 6:2 in guns compared to the USA), can afford to build up only their navy along with transports, for an invasion of the east coast. The Turks need to strike fast, they have only an value of 16, while the USA value of 20 IPC will be felt, if enough rounds go by of play.

    Round One: Turkey builds a BB, while the USN goes to the entrance of the Mediterranean Sea, to bait the Turkish Navy, and, builds a BB & submarine.

    Round Two: Turkish navy(BB & 2C) moves and attacks USN(BB & 1 C), while at same time had build two transports & a submarine. After the battle only the Turkish BB survives. USA goes and her BB & sub. move down to the entrance of the Med.Sea and engages the Axis BB, for the lost of US sub., the Axis BB is sunk.

    USA builds two transports and a submarine.

    Round Three: Turkey builds a BB & submarine. US fleet from east coast & BB at entrance to Med. sea, move off French West Africa, along with two transports of trooper & gun each(also builds a gun & transport & submarine).

    Round Four: Turks build another two transports, while the US builds one transport and a C & gun.

    Round Five: Ditto(Turkey also builds a tank). US fleet moves one more space down the coast of Africa(off S.W. Africa).

    Round Six: Turks build one transport and a plane. US 2C & transport(with trooper & gun), go to join USN fleet off Africa(builds another two transport & tank).

    Round Seven: It is either now or never, Turkey can sail to invade US east coast, or, build up its fleet to meet the Americans coming around Africa with their invasion fleet. They decide to invade, and, to built up another transport and a new home fleet(starting with a sub.), to await the Americans.

    US BB doubles back to sea space 22(where two US C are stationed) to meet last two transports that sailed from east coast, and, other US transports & subs. move to space 26. USA builds two fighter planes & tank & trooper for home defense.

    Round Eight: Turkish Navy does not engage US Navy off coast of Africa, too evenly match & has more transports to lose, continues sailing to east coast(builds another sub. & transport).

    USA six transports & two submarines are off coast of Mesopotamia, transports unload, defending trooper & gun destroyed(for lost of two troopers). USA builds 5 troopers & gun for home defense.

    Round Nine: Turkish fleet arrives off east coast, lose a sub. to mines, destroys four troopers & Axis lose five troopers & plane. From Ankara Turkish Army attacks and loses all five troopers for lose of one trooper USA. From Syria eight troopers & gun attack and loses three troops for lost of two USA troopers. Failure to go on defensive and attack next turn en mass, instead of piecemeal attacks causes Axis heavy losses. Finally making use of the two subs. and two transports(no troops to load unto them), the former go to attack the US invasion fleet, while the latter go into the Black Sea.

    USA forces counterattacks from east coast forces, losses of trooper & tank, destroys two Axis guns. US fleet off Africa of BB & 2 C & 2 transport arrives off east coast, destroys Turkish BB & two subs., for lost of a C & damaged BB. Landed tank & fighter and two troopers destroy two Axis cannons(lost of trooper & tank). USA will not collect 20 IPCs. USA forces in Turkey take Ankara and leaving two transports, two USA subs. and three transports, go up to Suez canal & destroy 2 Axis submarines.

    Round Ten: Turkey attacks in east coast, remaining trooper & gun lost(same losses US), transports attempt to flee. Attacks in Turkey, take back Ankara for lost of trooper, each side. Attack Mesopotamia for lost of three troopers to USA one trooper & gun.

    USA goes, leaves two subs. off Turkey’s capital of Istanbul, and, trooper in Mesopotamia destroys gun, while US gun goes back on offshore transport. East coast fleet of BB & C chase and destroys seven Axis transports.

    The game is a political victory for USA, even with one round where the USA did not collect IPCs, the USA comes out on top, a military victory is good numbers of rounds away, but, not impossible.

    USA went to a high of 26 IPC, while Turkey went to a low of 10 IPCs. Turkey contested but not take military the east coast, while US forces took two out of six Turkish home provinces(three value each). Both sides suffer from lack of follow up waves of attacks(even thought the USA is still holding unto Mesopotamia). The game started with for Turkey and ended with troopers 22/9, guns 6/1, Cruisers 2/0, 0/2 transports. For the U.S.A. 6/6 Infantry, 1/4 artillery, 0/2 tanks, 0/2 planes, 1/1 BB, 1/1 C, 0/2 submarines; 0/7 transports. Turkey has no air & sea power(only 2 transports), one cannon, and, less than half the infantry it started with. While the USA has stayed the same for infantry & surface sea power, but, grown in air power, tanks, artillery, subs., and, transports.

    Next consider a dubious ally in both world wars, Italy.


  • @Pellulo
    5.
    A dispute among the Central Powers, Germany decides a little military action would bring the house to order, Austria-Hungary & Turkey sit it out, while the rest of Europe wonders, how this version of the New Roman Empire well fare.

    Italy versus Imperial Germany, if the latter go through Switzerland, it would be a quick campaign(and make an ally for Italy), or, go the sea route. Should Italy pour all its resources into sea power, or, build up her land forces(or do both of the same).

    Round One: Germany buys 1 Cruiser & 4 transports, Italy decides to invest mostly in Naval material, such as a Battleship. Two German subs. stationed off the Med. sea destroyed by Italain BB & C. The Italian transport reinforces Albania.

    Round Two: Germany buys two sub., BB and transport. Attacks with two remaining subs. & BB & C, and, destroys Italian BB & C(for lost of two subs.). Italy by transport reinforces her home islands of Sardina & Sicly, and, buys C and a submarine.

    Round Three: Germany buys six transports & Italy buys two subs(finishes reinforcing her home islands).

    Round Four: Germany buys 5 transports, and, naval clash off Italy. Italian fleet is lost of BB, C, 2 subs., &, transport. While Germany losses 2C & a BB, and, lands four transports(of trooper & gun each ship). Losses are 2 German troopers & 6 Italian troopers.

    Italy counterattacks contested Rome, losses 5 troopers, and, Germans lose 3 guns and a trooper.

    Gave the game to Germany, still has forces in Rome, and, a second & third wave of German Naval transports are coming.

    Point value losses are Germany 91 & Italy 111.

    Pellulo
    6.


  • Next Italy attacked by Germany going through Switzerland…

    Round One: Germany buys 1 Cruiser & 4 transports, takes Switzerland, for a lost of one trooper each side. Italy buy a plane & sub., transport brings home trooper & gun from N.Africa, and, concentrates troops & guns at Piedmont.

    Round Two: Germany builds for an attack on Piedmont, buys four fighters & BB, &, Battle Fleet sails for Med. Sea. Italy buys two subs. & transport picks up trooper in E. Africa,

    Round Three: Germany builds C & 4 troopers & three guns. New BB joins transport fleet. Battle fleet enters Med. Sea and attacks Italian Fleet(both sides loses a BB & C & 4 German & 3 Italian subs). Both naval forces are wiped out!

    Even thought not all armies are together, Germany attacks with one plane, 6 guns, & 15 troopers, against Italy’s army of 1 plane, 6 guns, 20 troopers. Losses for Italy 8 troopers, &, Germany losses of 1 plane, 14 troopers, and, five guns.

    Italy buys a sub. & three troopers. Destroys the invading German trooper & gun in Piedmont, for a lost of an trooper. Her transport is coming back with a trooper from East Africa.

    It is a hard choice, but, the the once Axis partner, gives the political victory to Germany. Rome is defended by four troopers and a sub.(A German fleet of a BB & 4 transports, of a gun & trooper each, is coming in the Med. Sea to take out Rome or her home islands, and, now non defensive colonies, much less Albania. Also a German C is just behind the transports). Also the second wave of Germans due to invade Piedmont, have 4 fighters, 8 guns, and,35 troopers(much less a third wave of just only 8 troopers & six guns), against a Italian fighter, 6 guns, and, 12 troopers.

    If Germany had waited for round four to invade, with the combined first and second wave, Italy would have gone down(losing all her forces in Piedmont). Better to settle for a political victory for German, than let the “Huns” overrun Italy.

    IPC loses in material are Germany 123 & Italy 69.


  • @Pellulo
    7.
    Italy versus Austrian Hungarian Empire

    AH can attack Venice from two different sectors, also they have about 2:1 ratio in troopers, guns, and, economy. Her fleet is the same size as Italian fleet, but, AH can reinforce it, much less the army, at the same time. Italy could build up her fleet a bit, but, will need all her and resources to get AH out of Venice.

    Round One: AH purchases, two subs. & transport & fighter. Moves her fleet to battle Italian fleet, both fleets of BB & C destroyed, and, has a transport that lands in Albania two troopers. AH troops & guns go into Venice from Tyrolia & Trieste sectors, attack & destroy five troopers & two guns(for a lost of six troopers).

    Italy buys a sub. & two troopers, attacks AH forces in Venice with forces from Tuscany & Piedmont(Roman forces move into Tuscany). Also her transport brings a trooper & gun from N.Africa to Venice. Losses are six troopers against AH losses of four troopers and a gun.

    Still Venice is contested, with Italy’s two troopers & three guns, holding out against AH one trooper & four guns. Italy’s last major field army(two guns & six troopers) is in between Rome & Venice, should it send some troops to help Rome(with three troopers) against an possible sea invasion(the Italian sub. may not hold back two AH subs. with two transports). Also a second wave of an fighter & four guns & sixteen troops are ready to enter Venice from AH next turn. Along with her IPC is now reduced to ten, with Libya, Sicily, Sardinia, and, Naples open to sea invasion.

    Final IPC losses AH 55 & Italy 82.

    Italy chooses a political victory for AH, better too lose Venice, than to lose everything else.

    Next Italy faces off an old foe, dating back to Middle Ages, Italy versus the Ottoman Empire.

    Pellulo
    8.


  • Here are two powers closely match in strength. In terms of worth, Ottoman have two more IPCs than Italy, her fleet is just 2 C to Italy’s BB & C, they have one more starting trooper to Italy, while the Italians have one more starting gun to the Ottomans.

    Separated by just the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, who ever controls the sea, can land transports for invasion. Unfortunately for the powers, the Turks have the edge. Here even if Italy control the sea(the Turkish fleet wiped out), with such low economic numbers, if would take many/allot of rounds to build the transports, for an invasion(much less a second and third wave).

    The Turks would simply build their land forces up, using Istanbul & Syria, as major reserve points, they can reinforce the other four provinces.

    The Italians could contest a province or two, but, could they hold it(does it become more a big raid, than a landing?). When Turkey goes again, and, drives them back into the sea, using troops & guns from Istanbul & Syria. Could the Italians have a second & third wave, to reinforce their contested landing(s)? It would boil down to the first wave taking and holding unto that province(and allot of good dice rolls).

    Now if the Turks controls the sea, they have a choice. Here Italian mainland is five provinces, using Rome & Tuscany, as your strong points, you can reinforce the other three provinces. Now the problem is the home island of Sicily, &, Sardinia, pride would make you put a trooper there, but, they have no point value. Albania starts the game undefended, and, is worth two, Libya is worth one & has a trooper & gun, while the throwaway colony of Somali-land is worth one, &, has a defending trooper(too far to reinforce).

    The Turkish fleet & transports would pick off the non-connecting islands, colonies, and, Albania, one by one. Ottoman IPCs would go to 20(Italy would go to 10), still it would be allot/many rounds before transports could be built, for any landings(much less any second & third waves).

    Now Round One: Turks builds a BB(their fleet is protected from attack, in the Black Sea). Spreads troops & guns around, so all provinces have three troopers & a gun, no less(Istanbul & Smyrna has six troopers).

    Italy builds a C & a gun, reinforces Albania with a trooper & gun, spreads her troops and guns, so all mainland provinces have at least three troopers & a gun(Tuscany has a extra gun, and, Piedmont & Venice has two extra troopers).

    Round Two: Turkey buys a transport and a sub.(the former placed in the Black Sea & latter in the Med. Sea), and, a gun. Turks fleet attack the enemy fleet, and, they lose their BB & 2 C(the Italians lose 2C, &, damage BB).

    Italy sends the damaged BB and sinks the Turkish sub.(in turn the BB is sunk). Along with the transport reinforces the home islands with a trooper each. Also buys a sub. and a fighter & trooper.

    Each side has just a transport on the seas(before Italy places her new sub.). The game goes to both sides for victory, in this tit for tat Naval Warfare. When it comes to landings Turkey has a edge of picking off the non mainland parts of Italy. While Italy would have it tough to take & KEEP any Turkish province. Still you got to control the Mediterranean Sea to make any landings.

    Final IPCs lost Turkey 36 & Italy 30.

    Pellulo
    Next an old sea power meets a new sea power, British Empire versus Imperial Germany.

    The British fleet starts with a large advantage over Germany(British 2 BB, 5C, &, 4T versus Germany 1BB, 2C, &, 4 subs.). Also in terms of IPCs, the Axis have a five advantage over the Allies, along with over a two to one advantage in men and guns.

    Here even with a Naval arms race, the British can keep the German fleet locked up. Also pick off the German colonies, one by one, but, still with 31 IPCs left for Germany, the British will not have much luck in any pernament landing(s) in Germany.

    Now if Germany controls the seas, and, takes out the British possessions, the British IPSc go out by a little over a half.

    The most Britain can do is take over Germany’s colonies, while Germany can do the same & take over Britain’s home islands.

    For this to happen, Germany needs one big sea victory over Britain, by building up her fleet, and, attacking before the distant colonial based British fleet gets to the home islands(or go for broke and attack in the first round).

    Round One: Germany builds two fighters & 2BB. British Empire buys one fighter & four subs., transports begin to move to Germany’s African colonies, while naval ships, from America, Egypt, and India begin to move to home islands of Britian. A trooper and a gun is landed in German East Africa(it falls for the lost of the defending trooper & British gun).

    Round Two: Germany builds 3C & 1fighter, all her fleet is concentrated. British Empire buys fighter and two BB. Lands in Togoland, and, defending trooper is taken out, for lost of an gun. Concentrating her fleet in home waters, Canadian C already arrive.

    Round Three: Germany buys 1 fighter, 1 BB & C & sub., and, attacks before 2 C & BB, arrive from Mediterranean and Indian area(to reinforce the British Home fleet). Axis lose 2 fighters, 3 subs., 4 damaged BB, Allies 3 BB & 3 C & 4subs. & 2 fighters are lost. British Empire goes and buys 1 BB & 1C & 2 submarines. Also takes out SW Africa for a lost of an trooper and destruction of trooper & gun.

    I give this game to Germany, she has in home waters 2 fighter, 4 BB, 6 C, 2 submarines, getting ready to break out of N.Atlantic(the damaged BBs will be repaired by Round 4). British Empire has 1BB & 3C & 2subs.(with a BB & 2C on the way, still hard to make up for the losses suffered already).

    Of course the dice may roll in favor of the British, but, not counting on that to happen. Another game the British could have won “The Jutland” type naval battle. The Germans can go for a long out destruction of the British fleet, retaking her colonies, and, taking out British possessions. Or settled for a political victory, get her colonies back and a colony or two from the Allied side.

    Total IPCs lost Imperial Germany 43 & BE 110.

    Earlier in another scenario the Germans attack the British Home Fleet in round one, they buy the same things. The Germans lose 2C & a sub. & damaged BB, for a British lost of an BB and 2C. Also the Canadian C & transport are lost, no losses for the 2 attacking German subs. The British buy the same, and, take German East Africa for the same losses. Here we do not have a blow out like in the previous scenario. The fleets with the included purchase units are, Germany 3 fighters & 3BB(one damaged) & three subs.(66 in points), the British still have 1 fighter, 4 subs., 2C & 1 BB(from Med. & India) & 3 transports(78 points in value). The battle can still go either way, final lost IPCs are Germany 27 & British 49.

    Pellulo
    Next British Empire versus Austrian-Hungarian Empire.
    Last edited by pellulo on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Pellulo

    Both empires are close in start up units for land forces, and, IPCs. The major difference are the naval forces setup, no Battle of Jutland here, the British Empire has a definite advantage over Austria-Hungarian naval forces.

    Again the same problem for the British when they confronted the German Empire, there is no chance of a successful mass permanent landing(s) on the enemy coastline. A-H might never have much of a fleet, but, they can always build land/air units to contest any British landings(how many rounds for the British to build enough transports, if they ever made a difference, for a landing. The A-H can build two troopers for defense, just for every transport the Allies build).

    Still the best the British can hope for is a political sea victory, closing off A-H seaports(there is no colonies to take over in Africa).

    Even thought AH goes first, it does not attack British naval forces off Egypt, as it would face counterattack from the fleet off India. For the first four rounds it builds its air/naval forces, with half of the land forces in Trieste(the only AH province that touches the sea). The rest in the other provinces ready to help defeat any British landings. By staying in home waters, the AH fleet gets use of its minefield.

    By Round Four British Empire attacks, with only one transport loaded, they are going for a political victory, just destroy the AH fleet, and, make a very temporary landing. The differences in IPCs are only four, Britian cannot let AH build up their fleet for too many rounds.

    Of AH’s 4 submarines, 3C & 5BB, 1 transport, & two planes fight off British fleet of 9C(six more on the way) & 4BB & 4 transports(only one has a trooper & gun). The British lose a transport & damaged BB to mines. Both fleets are lost, except for a British transport that lands a trooper & gun(they do not attack, the AH let them leave). With six more British C to join the battle, the AH settle for a political victory, let the landed trooper & gun depart next turn, &, get there coastline back.

    Another scenario for the first four rounds the AH build just planes, and, using Trieste as a giant AC attack the British fleet with air & sea power. You have 13 planes & BB & C & transport attack Britain’s 9c & 4BB & 4 transports. The initial AH air fighters damage all BBs and sink 2C, while the British fleet destroys 6 fighters. Finally the AH fleet of a BB & C & transport is sunk for a lost of just two more British Cs. The British land their transport for a political victory, while the AH empire still has 6 fighters left.

    Pellulo
    Next the British Empire versus the Turkish Empire, where a full military victory is possible.

    In IPCs the British Empire has almost twice what the Turkish Empire has, Britain has 5C to Turkey only naval force of 2C(plus 2 BB & 4 transports for BE), 10 guns to 6 guns, and, 34 troopers to Turkey 23 troopers.

    Except for the Syrian desert province, all of the Ottoman Empire is open to seaborne assault, and, British Empire has Egypt/Saudi Arabia as a springboard to actual invade the Turkish empire.

    Unless the British fleet sinks itself, it is hard for the Turks to lead any naval invasion.
    What is Turkey to do, wait for invasion, &, build up its land/air forces, or, attack SA/

    Round One: British Empire builds 5 transports off home islands, to be filled by troopers and guns on islands, already the BB & 2 C & transport(with trooper & gun), has set sail. Also from Canada transport(with same) & C has set sail for the Mediterranean Sea. Off Egypt British C, &, C from India wipe out both Ottoman Cruisers for the lost of 1 C. The transport off Egypt placed one trooper from Sudan on Turkish Jordan province(where the British Garrison of 6 troopers & 1 gun from Egypt has crossed into), and, set sail to India. Turkish Jordan is taken with no Allied losses & Axis lost of 2 troopers & gun. Off India transport with trooper & gun lands in Mesopotamia with BB for support, Mesopotamia is contested for a lost of gun & trooper Axis and 1 gun Allies. Also troops & gun assemble in S. Africa, waiting for transports.

    Turkey goes and buys 5 Infantry, also 6 Infantry & 1 gun from Smyrna and 1 infantry from Syria goes into British held Jordan, the province is contested with lost of 2 troopers each. In Mesopotamia the defending trooper is joined by 6 troopers & 1 gun from Ankara, losses are one trooper each side(the British are driven out for now).

    Losses in IPCs for turn one are 22 Allies & 40 Axis.

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