I know I’ve already asked much of this previously, but I’d like to clear it beyond doubts.
Let’s have these five situations.
A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, does not load any more units, moves into a hostile sea zone during the same turn and does not offload any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units nor offloads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units nor offloads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and moves into an other sea zone and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
A transport has no units on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and loads and offloads any number of units without moving (beside making the bridging movement) into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
A transport has one infantry on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and loads one aa gun (keeping it or board) and offloads the infantry into the same territory whence it has loaded the aa gun without moving (beside making the bridging movement if this is a bridging movement) during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
I assume that cases 3 and 4 are illegal in every rules-set because you can never non-combat move a transport and you can never both load and offload (as in bridging) with a transport if in both cases the transport has been in combat during the current turn (even if it did not move nor did anything other than taking part in the sea battle). Correct?
I’m fairly sure this would be the same as 3 and 4 for point 5 too even though one may argue that it should be allowed in some rules-set on the account that what is happening is not really a bridging movement because the transport is not actually going from a territory to an other one within the same sea zone.
Can I have a list of all rules-sets where the aforementioned sequences of actions are either legal or illegal, starting from “Classic 1st Edition” (but no need to do it for cases 3 and 4 and 5 if what I said is correct)? It does not need to be an actual list: something like “this full sequence of actions is illegal in every game since Revised LHTR but was legal in Revised OOB and every game beforehand” would be just as good (comprising the original Europe and Pacific which are temporarily in between of Classic 2nd Edition and Revised OOB).
Thank you very much.
@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later. Cases 3 through 5 are not legal in any version.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later. Cases 3 through 5 are not legal in any version.
Thank you for the clarifications.
In particular, I got the doubts because the rules for Revised LHTR (2.0) do not clearly state (in my opinion) that a transport which took part in a battle cannot do anything else at all until the end of the turn.
Regarding the cases 3, 4 and 5 (assuming that case 5 counts as bridging, thus as the transport moving albeit within the same sea zone), I understand that they are ruled out at least by the sentence
Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat they may not move or participate
in the noncombat move phase of the turn.
(obviously assuming that “they may not move” means “they cannot move” so not “they are allowed not to move”)
Moreover, am I right to understand that a transport which offloads one or more units without doing anything else is not moving, yet it is participating in the phase?
If so, the aforementioned excerpt would also make case 2 illegal, because the transport participated in combat and would then also participate in the noncombat move phase of the turn. Right?
I’m just not sure that offloading one or more units during the noncombat move phase means participating in the noncombat move phase because the transport can be seen as being purely passive (as even an allied transport can do that outside of its turn).
Similarly, if a transport participate in combat, does its cargo count as participating in combat too? For example, are units which were cargo of a transport which participated in combat during the current turn considered units which participated in combat? I’m quite certain they do not, but I somewhat see a similarity between their passivity and the passivity of the (possibly allied) transport which do nothing but offloading other units.
Still regarding case 2, I assume that just offloading does not count as a movement for the transport (although making the transport unable to move for the rest of the turn).
If offloading as in case 2 counts as the transport itself making a noncombat movement (by moving to a coast-line within the same sea zone), how do the rules clarify that?
In any case, since the quoted excerpt only refers to units being in hostile sea zones at the start of their controller’s turn, it leaves case 1 open.
Regarding case 1 (beside the fact that it would be of course forbidden if we can assume that offloading from a transport counts as moving the transport), the only thing which I’ve found seemingly forbidding what at the case is the following excerpt.
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded,
moved or offloaded during the combat move or combat phase.
This would cover the (common) case (1) of taking part in a battle by moving to the sea zone of the battle (however it would say nothing about the (very rare) case (2) in which an already loaded transport starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and does not move).
The first problem which I have with this excerpt is that whether the “or” are inclusive or exclusive is not clarified. I assume that they have to be inclusive, so the excerpt can be more clearly re-written as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load and/or offload cargo unless they loaded,
moved and/or offloaded during the combat move and/or combat phase.
(I’ve also removed the unnecessary comma before “unless”.)
However, this is not a major problem because I think that it is quite obvious that the “or” of this sentence are actually “and/or”. Of course, I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with just writing “or” to mean “and/or”: that’s just common English and makes perfectly sense in situations where the inclusiveness is already clear enough to deem unnecessary to resort to writing “and/or” instead of just “or” (which I assume is the reason the “and/or” was not used in this sentence but was used in other ones).
The main problem which I have with this sentence is that the main clause (specifically, as re-written, “transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load and/or offload cargo”) can be understood as talking about a situation in which we are both moving and loading/offloading. In this case (if we read it that way, which I believe we can), the whole sentence would say nothing about cases in which we are moving without loading and/or offloading as well as cases in which we are loading and/or offloading without moving.
To be clear, the aforementioned re-written quote can be read as
Transports can both move to friendly coastal territories and load and/or offload cargo unless they loaded,
moved and/or offloaded during the combat move and/or combat phase.
My assumption is that this is not the intended meaning of the sentence and that the “and” in the sentence was actually intended to be an “and/or”, so the actual sentence was supposed to be
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and/or load and/or offload cargo unless they loaded,
moved and/or offloaded during the combat move and/or combat phase.
Correct?
If this is correct, let me point out that (whereas in English you can surely write “or” to mean “and/or”) I believe that you do not usually write “and” to mean “and/or”, which would make the sentence not very clearly written (only if my interpretation is correct of course).
Alternatively, it may have been intended to be a case of “it can do this and can do that”, in which case it could have been written (writing “and can” instead of only “and”) as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and can load and/or offload cargo unless they loaded,
moved and/or offloaded during the combat move and/or combat phase.
The sentence could have been written even more clearly (at the cost of being harder to read) as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and/or load and/or offload cargo, but they can neither move nor load nor offload if they loaded,
moved and/or offloaded during the combat move and/or combat phase.
So my understanding is that each of the last three sentences which I’ve written and quoted is equipollent to the excerpt. Correct?
Sorry if I’m missing something obvious and thank you.
(I actually do believe that the Revised LHTR rules are some of the best written Axis & Allies rules.)
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
In particular, I got the doubts because the rules for Revised LHTR (2.0) do not clearly state (in my opinion) that a transport which took part in a battle cannot do anything else at all until the end of the turn.
They do. See below.
Regarding the cases 3, 4 and 5 (assuming that case 5 counts as bridging, thus as the transport moving albeit within the same sea zone), I understand that they are ruled out at least by the sentence
Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat they may not move or participate
in the noncombat move phase of the turn.(obviously assuming that “they may not move” means “they cannot move” so not “they are allowed not to move”)
Moreover, am I right to understand that a transport which offloads one or more units without doing anything else is not moving, yet it is participating in the phase?
Yes.
If so, the aforementioned excerpt would also make case 2 illegal, because the transport participated in combat and would then also participate in the noncombat move phase of the turn. Right?
Yes, it would in Classic, but not in Europe, Pacific, or Revised, as there is an explicit exception for offloading transports after combat.
I’m just not sure that offloading one or more units during the noncombat move phase means participating in the noncombat move phase because the transport can be seen as being purely passive (as even an allied transport can do that outside of its turn).
Yes, it does mean that, though I agree it’s kind of a grey area because of using allied transports.
Similarly, if a transport participate in combat, does its cargo count as participating in combat too? For example, are units which were cargo of a transport which participated in combat during the current turn considered units which participated in combat? I’m quite certain they do not, but I somewhat see a similarity between their passivity and the passivity of the (possibly allied) transport which do nothing but offloading other units.
Yes, the cargo also participates, as it may be indirectly taken as a casualty.
I believe this makes the rest of your questions moot, does it not? As far as the intent of the sentence you quoted, we simply didn’t take into account starting in a hostile sea zone and add “participated in combat” (it was added in later versions).
(I actually do believe that the Revised LHTR rules are some of the best written Axis & Allies rules.)
Thanks. We put a lot of effort into them.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
Similarly, if a transport participate in combat, does its cargo count as participating in combat too? For example, are units which were cargo of a transport which participated in combat during the current turn considered units which participated in combat? I’m quite certain they do not, but I somewhat see a similarity between their passivity and the passivity of the (possibly allied) transport which do nothing but offloading other units.
Yes, the cargo also participates, as it may be indirectly taken as a casualty.
I believe this makes the rest of your questions moot, does it not?
Yes, because the sentence
In this phase, you can move any of your units that did not move in the combat move phase or
participate in combat during your turn.
would clearly make all cases illegal comprising the ones in which, during noncombat move, I’m doing nothing but offloading units.
However, if you tell me that the cargo also participates in combat, why cannot I load a transport and send the transport in combat deliberately keeping the cargo on board in Revised OOB? I already asked that question and, going from memory, I remember that the answer was that the loaded units are not really going into combat being just cargo, so combat moving them is not legal (so I cannot load a transport and move it into combat keeping the loaded unit or units on board with no intention to offload them all after winning the battle).
I know that is not a problem for Revised LHTR because it is clearly stated that
A transport may only end its combat move still carrying land units if it retreats from a sea combat
in the intended offloading sea zone or if those units were already aboard at the beginning of the
turn.
(beside the fact that I believe that this sentence is not very clear (unless I’m misunderstanding something) because a transport can also end its combat move still carrying land units if it is planning an amphibious assault from a hostile sea zone because those units would not actually leave the transport before the conduct combat phase so would still be carried upon ending the combat move phase unless we consider that offloading units during the conduct combat phase counts as a movement for the transport too (Does it?))
but I understood that the reason why this is illegal in Revised OOB as well as all previous games like Classic relied on the cargo not really participating in combat so not being allowed to move during combat move if not making or planning to make any other movement but loading onto a transport which is going to participate in combat, whereas now you are telling me that the cargo also participates in combat.
What is exactly making the cargo of a transport which participated in combat being accounted as having participated in combat when we are in the noncombat move phase yet not making us able to load it on the transport on the same turn accounting that as a legal combat movement on the basis that the cargo is going to participate in combat?
I’m talking from the perspective of every game before Revised LHTR (where the matter is not as clearly stated as in what I quoted).
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
As far as the intent of the sentence you quoted, we simply didn’t take into account starting in a hostile sea zone and add “participated in combat” (it was added in later versions).
To be clear, are you talking about the sentence
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded,
moved or offloaded during the combat move or combat phase.
meaning that it should have been written as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded,
moved, offloaded or participated in combat during the combat move or combat phase.
(on top of what I’ve already argued about it in my re-writings)?
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
However, if you tell me that the cargo also participates in combat, why cannot I load a transport and send the transport in combat deliberately keeping the cargo on board in Revised OOB?
I don’t believe there’s any rule that would prevent that.
Because the transported land units are only passively participating in the sea combat. To qualify for loading in combat movement, they must be intended for active participation in an amphibious assault.
I know that is not a problem for Revised LHTR because it is clearly stated that
A transport may only end its combat move still carrying land units if it retreats from a sea combat in the intended offloading sea zone or if those units were already aboard at the beginning of theturn.
(beside the fact that I believe that this sentence is not very clear (unless I’m misunderstanding something) because a transport can also end its combat move still carrying land units if it is planning an amphibious assault from a hostile sea zone because those units would not actually leave the transport before the conduct combat phase so would still be carried upon ending the combat move phase unless we consider that offloading units during the conduct combat phase counts as a movement for the transport too (Does it?))
It’s a problem. That’s why it was dropped in later games.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
As far as the intent of the sentence you quoted, we simply didn’t take into account starting in a hostile sea zone and add “participated in combat” (it was added in later versions).
To be clear, are you talking about the sentence
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved or offloaded during the combat move or combat phase.
meaning that it should have been written as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded or participated in combat during the combat move or combat phase.
Yes.
(on top of what I’ve already argued about it in my re-writings)?
Mostly. They can load or offload (but not move) in noncombat movement if they moved in combat movement and/or participated in combat.
Yes.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
However, if you tell me that the cargo also participates in combat, why cannot I load a transport and send the transport in combat deliberately keeping the cargo on board in Revised OOB?
I don’t believe there’s any rule that would prevent that.
Are you saying that, if I play Revised OOB or a previous Axis & Allies game, I can load one or two units onto a transport during combat move and send the transport into a hostile sea zone keeping the units on board until the end of the combat move phase and without designating them to make any amphibious assaults on this turn (for example, in case the embattled sea zone is not adjacent to an enemy territory)?
I know that is not a problem for Revised LHTR because it is clearly stated that
A transport may only end its combat move still carrying land units if it retreats from a sea combat in the intended offloading sea zone or if those units were already aboard at the beginning of theturn.
(beside the fact that I believe that this sentence is not very clear (unless I’m misunderstanding something) because a transport can also end its combat move still carrying land units if it is planning an amphibious assault from a hostile sea zone because those units would not actually leave the transport before the conduct combat phase so would still be carried upon ending the combat move phase unless we consider that offloading units during the conduct combat phase counts as a movement for the transport too (Does it?))
It’s a problem. That’s why it was dropped in later games.
Sorry, but I’m not sure about what you are referring to as having been dropped?
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
As far as the intent of the sentence you quoted, we simply didn’t take into account starting in a hostile sea zone and add “participated in combat” (it was added in later versions).
To be clear, are you talking about the sentence
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved or offloaded during the combat move or combat phase.
meaning that it should have been written as
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded or participated in combat during the combat move or combat phase.
Yes.
(on top of what I’ve already argued about it in my re-writings)?
Mostly. They can load or offload (but not move) in noncombat movement if they moved in combat movement and/or participated in combat.
Wait! That sentence is from Revised LHTR (where I understand that the transport can neither move nor load nor offload if it moved in combat movement and/or participated in combat?).
Maybe I should have clarified it each time, but everything I quoted at my second post was only from Revised LHTR (2.0),
Actually, I’ve not quoted anything from any rule-book other than Revised LHTR (2.0) in this thread so far.
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
Are you saying that, if I play Revised OOB or a previous Axis & Allies game, I can load one or two units onto a transport during combat move and send the transport into a hostile sea zone keeping the units on board until the end of the combat move phase and without designating them to make any amphibious assaults on this turn (for example, in case the embattled sea zone is not adjacent to an enemy territory)?
Yes.
No.
Sorry, but I’m not sure about what you are referring to as having been dropped?
The sentence you quoted.
Wait! That sentence is from Revised LHTR (where I understand that the transport can neither move nor load nor offload if it moved in combat movement and/or participated in combat?).
Maybe I should have clarified it each time, but everything I quoted at my second post was only from Revised LHTR (2.0),
Actually, I’ve not quoted anything from any rule-book other than Revised LHTR (2.0) in this thread so far.
Yes, you’re right. I got lost bouncing back and forth between OOB and LHTR.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
Are you saying that, if I play Revised OOB or a previous Axis & Allies game, I can load one or two units onto a transport during combat move and send the transport into a hostile sea zone keeping the units on board until the end of the combat move phase and without designating them to make any amphibious assaults on this turn (for example, in case the embattled sea zone is not adjacent to an enemy territory)?
Yes.
I’m definitely on board with this ruling: I like it (and I dislike this capability being removed since Revised LHTR), and it is what I assumed as well.
However, in a previous topic I’ve asked
@Cernel said in Axis&Allies Classic 2nd Edition Transports Rules Questions:
Do the Revised OOB rule that, during Combat Movement, you can load a transport you are sending to take part in a sea battle, without offloading it on the same phase, applies to Classic 2nd Edition too? If not, could you, instead, load it and offload to a friendly land territory from the hostile sea zone, during Combat Movement? (I suppose it doesn’t, and there is no way you can both offload units into a friendly territory from a transport and use that same transport as fodder in an attack, unless the units were already loaded before the turn)
(To clarify, when I said “without offloading it on the same phase”, I actually meant “without designating it to offload anything on the subsequent Conduct Combat phase”.)
The answer has been
@Krieghund said in Axis&Allies Classic 2nd Edition Transports Rules Questions:
You may not load a transport during combat movement unless it is for an amphibious assault. You can only do what you describe by winning the sea battle (without the participation of the transport), then waiting until noncombat movement to load the transport, move it into the formerly hostile sea zone, then offloading into the friendly territory.
This question goes beyond what we are presently discussing, but what matters to us here is that, in your answer (for Classic 2nd Edition), you said “you may not load a transport during combat movement unless it is for an amphibious assault”, which literally rules out (in Classic 2nd Edition) the case of loading a transport to then send it to take part in a sea battle while leaving the cargo on board until the end of the turn regardless of the outcome of the battle.
Since my question back then was on Classic 2nd Edition, I assume that here you were answering for that version only, so that answer in itself is valid only for Classic 2nd Edition.
However, you also answered positively to my question “This is true all the same for the first, the second and the third editions of Classic, right?”, thus making that answer valid for all Classic games.
However, in an other topic, I asked a functionally identical question for the matter at hand regarding Revised OOB:
@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:
@Krieghund I have some doubts and wish to have some further confirmations, in case. Are any of the following series of actions legal, in Revised OOB:
- Starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 land units onto it, during Combat Move (except AA Guns, as they cannot move yet), sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 unit into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, once the sea battle is won, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then the transport can offload the other 1 land unit, but only into the same territory, during Non Combat Move, as the special rule that transports that took part in victorious sea battles can load or offload, but not both, during Non Combat Move, allows offloading from transports that already offloaded, during Combat Movement, just restricting them to the same territory where they already did it (practically I’m asking if here we can have a case of a same transport offloading both during Combat Move and Non Combat Move, when starting the turn empty).
To that query, you answered
@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:
- This is not legal, as any unit that loads onto a transport during combat movement must take part in an amphibious assault in the same turn. If one of the units on the transport had been loaded on a previous turn, it would be able to wait until noncombat movement to offload in that situation.
Thereafter, there has been a series of three-ways exchanges which tentatively clarified the very principles of this matter.
I also missed the one about units needing to offload if being loaded on combat movement.
Page 11:
In [the combat move] phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking units into the desired spaces on the game board; these may be occupied (contain enemy combat units) or enemy-controlled but unoccupied.
Page 11:
You can move units into friendly spaces en route to hostile spaces during [the combat move] phase, but they can end their move in friendly spaces only during the noncombat move phase.
Page 31:
Transporting Your Units:
This German transport has a number of options. It could:
• Load the infantry from Algeria, move, and load one artillery from Southern Europe;
• Load the infantry from Algeria, move, and load the infantry from Libya;
• Move, then load one artillery from Southern Europe and the infantry from Libya; or
• Load any one of those units.
It could then:
• Hold onto its cargo and remain at sea (noncombat);
• OfFload one or more units in Western Europe, Southern Europe, Algeria, Libya, or Balkans (noncombat);
• Conduct an amphibious assault on Gibraltar (combat); or
• Engage the UK destroyer in sea zone 15 (combat).There is also an FAQ entry that indirectly addresses the issue:
Q. Pieces were loaded onto a transport in a previous turn. This turn, the transport moves into a combat situation and survives the naval battle. Could they unload into a friendly territory during non-combat movement?
A. Yes.
If it were legal for units to load in combat movement without performing an amphibious assault in the same turn, this question would not need to specify that the units were loaded in a previous turn.
On the wording in the rulebook, I can’t see how it is illegal to load a transport, move into a hostile sea zone but not unload. But you are telling me that it is.
The rules that I quoted in my previous post indicate that movement done in the combat move phase must end in territories or sea zones that are either enemy-occupied or enemy-controlled (with one noted exception, which isn’t relevant here). In the case of transported units, this may be a two-step process, as there may be a sea battle before the units can be delivered to their destination, which in turn leads to an exception if the sea battle is unsuccessful. However, the amphibious assault must at least be attempted in order to satisfy the requirement that the movement of the transported units in combat movement end in such a space.
I, of course, take your word, but how can be inferred from the rulebook (or any clarifications) that ending your movement as cargo into a hostile sea zone (thus even being moved as cargo on the battleboard itself) does not possibly count for satisfying the requirement to “end their move in a hostile space”?
The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.
(About this, it was recently clarified that in Classic you can load transports in hostile sea zones (even after entering them on the same turn), so that way (in Classic) the loaded units could end their movement in a hostile sea zone. Thus, on this basis, one may argue that in Classic it should nevertheless be legal to move an empty transport into a hostile sea zone and then load one or two units onto the transport (so into a hostile sea zone) to keep them on board during the sea battle and for the rest of the turn. Right?)
I would totally read the rules as intending to allow loading units on combat movement moving into sea combat, then offloading to a friendly territory. You might want to do this if the transport starts in a hostile sea zone, or perhaps you want to hedge your bets in a more dangerous way than usual with a loaded vs unloaded transport.
Taking all the above quotes together, that is completely or near-to-completely incompatible with what you said now.
So, summarizing, it seems that, to the question
Are you saying that, if I play Revised OOB or a previous Axis & Allies game, I can load one or two units onto a transport during combat move and send the transport into a hostile sea zone keeping the units on board until the end of the combat move phase and without designating them to make any amphibious assaults on this turn (for example, in case the embattled sea zone is not adjacent to an enemy territory)?
we have two possible official answers (both from you): now you are saying that this is legal in every Classic game as well as in the original Europe and Pacific as well as in Revised OOB, but then you were saying the opposite: that this is illegal in every Classic game as well as in Revised OOB (and likely in the original Europe and Pacific as well).
Which one is the correct ruling?
To be sure (as I said), I certainly prefer your latest ruling (which you just gave at this topic), according to which the sequence of actions I’ve described is legal for “Revised OOB or a [whatever] previous Axis & Allies game”.
Might we have Larry Harris weighting on this maybe from an intentional stand-point for Revised OOB and previous games? Practically, asking him if he agrees with loading onto a transport and sending the transport to take part in a sea battle with no intention or possibility to make an amphibious assault? A further ancillary question would be how about loading two units onto a transport and sending it to take part in a sea battle on the same turn with the intention to offload only one unit during Conduct Combat (keeping the other one on board at least until the end of the Conduct Combat phase). Finally, the most important subsidiary question would be about the legality of starting inside a hostile sea zone, moving out of it into a non-hostile sea zone, then loading one or two units, then moving into the same or an other hostile sea zone without the intention to offload respectively the unit or both units during Conduct Combat.
(I have some further questions, but I’m waiting for this to be sorted out beforehand because the matter is quite overarching.)
@Cernel Honestly, the rules regarding cases like these in Revised and earlier are a mess. That’s one of the reasons we created LHTR in the first place. Forget what I said here to the contrary, and go with the prior rulings. I have edited my above answers in accordance with this.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel Honestly, the rules regarding cases like these in Revised and earlier are a mess. That’s one of the reasons we created LHTR in the first place. Forget what I said here to the contrary, and go with the prior rulings.
Dang! I liked the new ruling more but was expecting that you would say that…
So, to be clear, going back to my original query for pre-Revised LHTR games, specifically
What is exactly making the cargo of a transport which participated in combat being accounted as having participated in combat when we are in the noncombat move phase yet not making us able to load it on the transport on the same turn accounting that as a legal combat movement on the basis that the cargo is going to participate in combat?
what you are saying now is that being cargo of a transport which is participating in combat means “passively participating in a combat” for the units being cargo. That does not allow then to move during Combat Move but nevertheless counts as them having participated in combat once we are in the Non-Combat Move phase. Correct?
However, as I said, going with the prior rulings leaves an open question which I’ve made at my previous post, specifically
The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.
(About this, it was recently clarified that in Classic you can load transports in hostile sea zones (even after entering them on the same turn), so that way (in Classic) the loaded units could end their movement in a hostile sea zone. Thus, on this basis, one may argue that in Classic it should nevertheless be legal to move an empty transport into a hostile sea zone and then load one or two units onto the transport (so into a hostile sea zone) to keep them on board during the sea battle and for the rest of the turn. Right?)
This matter has not been addressed previously because I didn’t know that in Classic you are allowed to load onto transports which are inside hostile sea zones (which was subsequently positively clarified), so here I cannot just “go with the prior rulings”, or rather I would argue that doing so would literally make this sequence of actions legal unless we say that units which are inside a transport are not inside the sea zone of which the transport is inside, so loading onto a transport does not count as moving into the sea zone where the transport is. Does it?
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
what you are saying now is that being cargo of a transport which is participating in combat means “passively participating in a combat” for the units being cargo. That does not allow then to move during Combat Move but nevertheless counts as them having participated in combat once we are in the Non-Combat Move phase. Correct?
Sort of. It doesn’t allow them to load during the combat move phase. Transports carrying units that were loaded in a previous turn could be moved into combat, but they then would have participated in combat.
However, as I said, going with the prior rulings leaves an open question which I’ve made at my previous post, specifically
The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.
(About this, it was recently clarified that in Classic you can load transports in hostile sea zones (even after entering them on the same turn), so that way (in Classic) the loaded units could end their movement in a hostile sea zone.
I can’t seem to locate this. Could you point me to it?
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
However, as I said, going with the prior rulings leaves an open question which I’ve made at my previous post, specifically
The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.
(About this, it was recently clarified that in Classic you can load transports in hostile sea zones (even after entering them on the same turn), so that way (in Classic) the loaded units could end their movement in a hostile sea zone.
I can’t seem to locate this. Could you point me to it?
You mean where is the excerpt which I quoted herein or the topic where the capability of loading onto transports in hostile sea zones in Classic was clarified?
@Cernel The latter.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
what you are saying now is that being cargo of a transport which is participating in combat means “passively participating in a combat” for the units being cargo. That does not allow then to move during Combat Move but nevertheless counts as them having participated in combat once we are in the Non-Combat Move phase. Correct?
Sort of. It doesn’t allow them to load during the combat move phase. Transports carrying units that were loaded in a previous turn could be moved into combat, but they then would have participated in combat.
Based on your answer, I assume that, when I said “That does not allow then [I meant to write “them” not “then”.] to move during Combat Move”, you understood that I was saying “That does not allow the transports to move during Combat Move”, whereas I was actually saying “That does not allow the units to move during Combat Move”, and I was referring to them moving into the sea zones to become cargo. Anyway, just to make what I was saying clear.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
@Cernel The latter.
@Krieghund said in Loading Transports in Hostile Seazones:
OK, I have an official answer. It was never Larry’s intention that transports in Classic should be able to load in a hostile sea zone, but the rules as written do not reflect that intention. However, he’s not going to revise an FAQ for a game that’s been around for as long as Classic has and is now out of print for something this minor.
The bottom line is that in Classic, per the rules, you can load transports in a hostile sea zone during combat movement, though this was not intended. This ruling does not apply to any other A&A game besides Classic.
Thanks.
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
However, as I said, going with the prior rulings leaves an open question which I’ve made at my previous post, specifically
The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.
(About this, it was recently clarified that in Classic you can load transports in hostile sea zones (even after entering them on the same turn), so that way (in Classic) the loaded units could end their movement in a hostile sea zone. Thus, on this basis, one may argue that in Classic it should nevertheless be legal to move an empty transport into a hostile sea zone and then load one or two units onto the transport (so into a hostile sea zone) to keep them on board during the sea battle and for the rest of the turn. Right?)
No. Land units may only be loaded during combat movement for participation in an amphibious assault.
This matter has not been addressed previously because I didn’t know that in Classic you are allowed to load onto transports which are inside hostile sea zones (which was subsequently positively clarified), so here I cannot just “go with the prior rulings”, or rather I would argue that doing so would literally make this sequence of actions legal unless we say that units which are inside a transport are not inside the sea zone of which the transport is inside, so loading onto a transport does not count as moving into the sea zone where the transport is. Does it?
Yes, it does, but that doesn’t satisfy the requirement for doing so in combat movement unless doing so for an amphibious assault.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
Similarly, if a transport participate in combat, does its cargo count as participating in combat too? For example, are units which were cargo of a transport which participated in combat during the current turn considered units which participated in combat? I’m quite certain they do not, but I somewhat see a similarity between their passivity and the passivity of the (possibly allied) transport which do nothing but offloading other units.
Yes, the cargo also participates, as it may be indirectly taken as a casualty.
Once it has been ruled that the units being cargo of a transport which has participated in combat have participated in combat too, we are also faced by the fact that, in Revised OOB (as well as the original Europe and Pacific), we are allowing land units which participated in combat to move during the Noncombat Move phase of the same turn.
Specifically, it has already been clarified that (in Revised OOB and Europe and Pacific) an already loaded transport can participate in combat and thereafter offload its cargo into a friendly territory during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase.
This is generally going against what applies to all units (even air) in Revised OOB. For example, if I have a ship starting its turn inside a hostile sea zone and I don’t move it, that unit will also be a unit which participated in combat but did not move (the same case as the aforementioned cargo), and we do know that we cannot move it during Noncombat Move.
My understanding was that offloading the units as described two paragraphs above was legal because those units did not move (because they were already on board, so the transport moving did not count as them moving) and did not take part in combat (because the transport participating in combat did not count as its cargo participating too), but now I’m told that they count as having participated in combat.
Is this the only case in all Axis & Allies WW2 strategic games in which non-air units can both participate in combat and move in noncombat during the same turn?
To be overly clear, the matter is that the Revised OOB rules-book states that
In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn.
(Revised LHTR has the same excerpt, which I’ve already quoted, and of course the phrase “did not move in the combat move phase or participate in combat during your turn” is to be read as “did neither move in the combat move phase nor participate in combat during your turn”.)
and you stated that
the cargo also participates [in combat]
This would literally mean that the cargo of a transport which participated in combat can never offload during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase.
However, the Revised OOB also states that
Transports that have
been in combat may either load
or offload (not both) during this
phase, but not if they have
retreated from combat this turn.
So, is this to be taken as a special rule which overrides the aforementioned general principle, making the already loaded units able to noncombat move despite having participated in combat?
I want to highlight how this exception is exceptionally strong in Revised OOB, where not even air units are allowed to move during the Noncombat Move phase if they participated in combat, so cargo would be the only one case in which that is possible at all.
I would also argue that the exception should have rather been made on the units which are cargo instead of on the transport carrying them, because, if the transport is allowed to offload the units but the units are not allowed to move (because they participated in combat), one may argue that they still cannot offload because the basic prohibition is on them moving, not on the transport offloading anything.
This is also to explain why I used to assume that units which are cargo of a transport which participated in combat during the current turn were not considered units which participated in combat (but now I know that they are).
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
Is this the only case in all Axis & Allies WW2 strategic games in which non-air units can both participate in combat and move in noncombat during the same turn?
I believe so.
However, the Revised OOB also states that
Transports that have
been in combat may either load
or offload (not both) during this
phase, but not if they have
retreated from combat this turn.So, is this to be taken as a special rule which overrides the aforementioned general principle, making the already loaded units able to noncombat move despite having participated in combat?
Yes.
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:
However, the Revised OOB also states that
Transports that have
been in combat may either load
or offload (not both) during this
phase, but not if they have
retreated from combat this turn.So, is this to be taken as a special rule which overrides the aforementioned general principle, making the already loaded units able to noncombat move despite having participated in combat?
Yes.
Okay, but a problem I see with considering this sentence as a special rule which overrides other rules is how do we decide which ones?
If it overrides any other rules, then I would argue (for consistency) that, just like it allows to offload units which the transport cannot otherwise offload, it should also allow to load units which the transport cannot otherwise load.
On this line of though, then I should be allowed to load 2 units onto a transport, have the transport taking part in a battle (no matter whether by moving it or not), offload the 2 units into an enemy territory during Conduct Combat (designating the territory during Combat Move) and load 1 or 2 units (which have not moved during this turn) onto the transport during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase.
Can I do this?
If the answer is no, I would then argue that it makes no sense for the rule that “transports that have been in combat may either load or offload” to allow me to offload units which I cannot otherwise offload because of participating in a battle as cargo while not to allow me to load units which I cannot otherwise load because of having already offloaded one or more units on this turn. If this is an overriding rule, it should either be an overriding rule in every case or there should be some actual reasons why it is overriding in some cases but not in others.
If the answer is yes, I would then argue that it makes no sense that a transport which has been in combat can somehow load units after having offloaded units on the same turn, whereas a transport that is just bridging (loading and offloading without moving) or loading-moving-offloading or moving-offloading or even just offloading without doing anything else cannot thereafter load any units on the same turn.
Possibly to avoid further inconsistencies, I will point out that the factual impossibility of loading after offloading on the same turn is in the rules-book for the bridging rules. From the rules-book:
Bridging: A transport can load and offload units without moving from the sea zone it is in. This is referred
to as “bridging.” Each such transport is still limited to its cargo capacity. It can offload only in one territory,
and once it offloads it cannot move or load cargo until the next round.
We already discussed about this, and this is an excerpt of what you said:
@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:
I also agree that the bridging rules are in conflict with the standard transport rules, and that’s part of the problem in interpreting the standard rules. In fact, the bridging rules specifically state that a transport can’t load after unloading - it’s the standard rules that imply (not state) that it can. Should they be consistent? Absolutely. But can we apply rules for a specific situation (bridging) more broadly? Maybe…
We eventually reached the agreement that the impossibility of loading after offloading given by the bridging rules should be taken as a general impossibility just as if the rules-book would state that you cannot load anything after offloading anything on the same turn. This is where this agreement was concluded:
@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:
“You can never load anything onto a transport after having offloaded anything from the same transport, on the same turn (no exceptions)”.
to which you replied
Yes, as far as the strategic-level games go.
So either answer to my previous question (“Can I do this?”) is not a good answer any more for me on this point unless I can understand what I’m getting wrong if anything.
Regardless, I’m still interested in an answer to this question even if I will be uncomfortable with it one way or the other.
