I know exactly the limitation of my speech. Im seeing the world within a specific culture, so im not objective (can we be objective?).
I perfectly know that when im saying evolve society im making a jugement hard to defend.
But can i say the US are as evolve as Sweden, no i cannot. Serious evidence tend to be on my side… yea yea, empirism cannot make the jump from evidence to proof, but well… get some information on Sweden, Norway, Austria, Danemak. These are the occidental evolve society of our time.
For the extra D, im sorry… im really butchering your native tongle :smile:.
I juge what is evolve by my critter, your critic is 100% correct. My remark own no real scientific or anthropologic value. Its just my jugement.
Note that i did’nt said explicitly that civilized soceity are civilisez because they dont use capital punishment, i only said civilized soceity dont use capital punishment. Still, i think it is a good critter of civilization.
“Gott ist Tot”
“Chacun prend les limites de son propre champ de vision pour celle de l’univers”
[ This Message was edited by: FinsterniS on 2002-05-21 22:17 ]
FinsterniS - made you post :smile:
and i think you’re english is excellent. once i realized that you’re ESL, i modified my assumptions considerably.
although i agree with you about capital punishment, i could not suggest that the U.S. is as a society not-evolved b/c of their choice (well, 'cept maybe Texas). I think Canada would still be considered evolved, even if Alberta decided that capital punishment was appropriate. Also given the age of the U.S. it is quite evolved, finally looking beyond themselves (to a small degree). True they elect people like G. Bush, but everyone makes mistakes. Look at the popularity of extremists in “evolved” Europe today - Austria, Holland (well, not anymore), France, Germany. Only the minority buys into the rhetoric, but the fact is they do have some power and to all appearances these countries are evolved (but just one wing-nut in the mix . . .).
Anyway, you get my point, and i have yours. I’ll stop baiting you now :smile: and maybe we’ll see this topic in a new topic post.
About extremist you forgot Italy… Anyway extremist are everywhere. From an european point of view Republican are extremist.
“Gott ist Tot”
“Chacun prend les limites de son propre champ de vision pour celle de l’univers”
[ This Message was edited by: FinsterniS on 2002-05-22 12:20 ]
Moses you are so arrogant. Shame on you crypt, he damned you for your BS and then you took his BS and liked it. “You are a new poster, and I am willing to forgive you”
Yuck.
Moses, you have no statistics either to back up your argument. You say, the “experts” agree that no one has been executed wrongly. Where did that come from? Any sources? Hypocrite.
Moses, do we have an excellent legal system? Hell No! Are human beings in general fair and just? Of course not. I turn on NPR and another wrongly convicted crimminal(s) has(have)been exhonerated. You can’t pardon a corpse. Without even moving past common sense, your argument is falling to pieces. All convicted murders are guilty my ass.
Also, not every murder is a timothy mcveigh. What about the retarded guy who stabs someone in a confused rage. Should he executed or hospitalized? In America, he is executed.
Moses, you are a racist. So is the death penalty. Not only are blacks more often executed, but they are more likely to get the death penalty. Murderers who kill whites are several times more likely to get the death penalty than murderers who kill non whites. By saying that the justice system very rarely misconvicts, you are saying that nonwhites are much more vicous, murderous, and less repentant. Or maybe Juries and prosecutors and Judges (predominantly white) are racist. Whooda thunk? Not a moron like you Moses.
IN illionois the govenor put a moratorium on executions because almost half the inmates on death row were exhonerated within a short period. And for those who are exhonerated, there are those who slip through the cracks.
Prison life is hell. Not flowers and music. Do you have any idea what goes on in a prison, fool.
Appeals cost millions and clog up the judicial system. They cost enough to imprison the convicted for more than a hundred years.
The truth is, Moses, you want blood. Fair legal system? Why did you pull that out of your ass. Shut up if you can’t stop lying through your rotten teeth, dumbass.
You probably support killing babies too huh? Have you seen an abortion? An execution? Same thing, except the Abortions more gruesome, and the victim is more innocent, too.
quote: Shame on you crypt, he damned you for your BS and then you took his BS and liked it. - yourbuttocks
this hurts. almost. 'cept i’m not really sure what you are talking about. are you pi**ed at me 'cuz i appreciate an intelligent point brought up by an adversary? Or do you think i’m wrong? About what? Who’s BS? And which of mine was BS?
I agree with your post, except for the personal attacks against Moses. And me.
To paraphrase:
Moses admonished Crypt (and all those who were against the death penalty) for not using enough facts.
Then, with no facts Moses stated that the Death Penalty was effective, moral, and just.
Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses.
Sorry about the comment about liking Moses’s B.S. (though it is B.S.) but the discussion I just described was so inane I couldn’t stand it.
As for Moses, anyone who believes that the slaughter of poor minorities is just is a sicko.
If poor are commit more crime, why not trying to help them ? Why do you think there’s FAR more less violence in country like Sweden ?
quote: Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses. -y/b
Didn’t happen. Not once. Moses and i are ideologically opposed on this one, and you and i are in the same camp. Maybe i don’t take the issue as seriously as you. I can’t remember the last time we had a good 'ole execution up here. It’s a dead issue in Canada (i hope).
It seems strange how a uncivilized, lesser-evolved country like USA is among the World’s Superpowers in terms of both GNP, military, industrialization, lasting ideology, and per capita income. However even these factors do not always determine evolutionary level. It depends on what you believe evolution is.
Is evolution humane and good, or should it be? Certainly animals have evolved over time, but that does not make them more humane and “good.” Usually it just means they are more capable of surviving and/or more efficient killers.
FinsterniS,
“Would it be because the poor are the ones who are more likely to and actually commit the majority of these crimes?”
Again this is what is wrong with America, and in a larger sense, capitalism. We are more worried about getting what is ours than caring for others. After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it. That is why there isn’t much of a “collectiveness” in America. Collectiveness centers more toward socialism and communism. You don’t live in a communists system expecting to use the phrase “I own this” very a lot, nor should you expect “lets help each other regardless” in a capitalistic society. Now as this moment and as long as America remains capitalist, there’s simply no changing the fact that the poor classes will indeed commit the majority of such crimes and should be punished accordingly.
Now, “psychologist know that killer are often people that suffer inside.”
True, there have been reported murders of people who are mentally unstable. However, in America you can plead for the “insanity defense,” which if proven will not result in capital punishment, but more likely psychiatric care. The true question, do murders use the “insanity defense” only to cover themselves and escape a 1st degree verdict? That is for the jury to decide based on cross-examinations, evidence, experts, and facts.
cystic crypt
“Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, David Millgard and Thomas Sophonow were each Canadians…”
Crypt, didn’t know these people were Canadian. For that reason, I cannot try this case. Now I’m debating capital punishment under the American justice system. Can you please provide me the names of any wrongly convicted there? Reason being is that I do not have enough experience with the Canadian legal system to properly analyze it. For all I know there is [Canadian law] no such thing as self-defense or manslaughter, but only 1st-degree murder on all cases.
After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it.
False
False
False
Thats a quite American conception of Capitalist. Well, no, the fittest does’nt survive in Capitalist, nor the peaple with high intelligence or anything. Capitalist encourage everything that is bestial, and while we ARE bestial, with such powerful weapon as nuclear bomb we cannot afford to be too much emotional. Humanity is in a stage where it need to restructure his vision of the world so it can survive.
And individuals, fighters in your so call fight for evolution, are killing the planet with pollution.
I can also say that this vision cost USA a lot, your scientist are’nt working together. You are making “lot” of discoveries without being able to articulate them to a bigger system.
And if you are right, why not be anarchist. No rules, only the “fittest” will survive.
Moses - fair enough.
and we have murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, manslaughter, and self-defence as well (our justice, and gov’t systems based more on British law than American). Just no capital punishment. But despite the fact that we are so much more civilized then you Americans (jk) we still manage to wrongfully convict people for murder. If it can happen here, why not Texas? (of course that’s missing the larger point that society should not be killing people :smile: )
“Well, no, the fittest does’nt survive in Capitalist, nor the peaple with high intelligence or anything.”
Wait… are you trying to say that by and large, those who have the strongest will to prosper and have a set economic plan won’t have a better chance of succeeding in a capitalistic world than someone who isn’t? Somehow, I don’t by that. Also, those with a higher intelligence do have a better chance of succeeding. Are you trying to say that a person with the IQ 67 with a GPA of 1.0 would have a better chance of survival in a capitalistic environment than someone with an IQ of 200 and a GPA of 2.0? If that is true, why even bother going to school or learn a skilled trade? And If this is true, then the majority of CEOs could be high school dropouts instead of college students. Also what is bestial does deal a lot with Economic Darwinism. Gov. Angus King has called the 1990s a period of ‘‘Economic Darwinism.’’ King describes the modern economy as ‘‘a no-holds-barred competition in which only the fit will survive’’ and ‘‘an unsentimental, remorseless competition.’’ Look at Bill Gates one of the most manipulative, deceptive, and deceitful person out there –- not to mention the richest man of all time. Do you think he just stumbled on his fortune by chance?
Why not anarchy? Nah, I’m a capitalist turned communist. Just because America is capitalist, doesn’t mean I am. I myself really don’t support survival of the fittest (the morals, not the scientific theory), but as long as America is capitalist, I’m afraid I am going have to support capital punishment.
Intelligence CAN be a factor, but a minor factor. Capitalist encourage lies, corruption.
Also capitalism is full of virus, like the peaple who live only by selling/buying actions. Not really contructive…
And… lets say the president of a bank. Are you trying to say he’s the fittest within his organisation ? Is he more productive than any ?
Anyway the “fittest survive” is not a really good excuse because in our society, every single individual can have its place and be productive, every single individual can be a good citizen.
In the Nature, weak animal perish because they are slowing down their group, are you saying that peaple with like 89 of IQ* are slowing down society ?
In Economic Darwinism, fittest does not always mean “physical fitness” but “mental fitness” and “survival fitness.” Hmmm… not exactly sure how you would gauge a animal’s IQ. Even then if you gauge the income of the 89- IQ and 200+ IQ, I think you will notice quite an income gap. Simply put, those with lower IQ s (while not always) will get the lower ranking and paying jobs compared with those with higher IQ s. And when it comes time for layoffs (another problem with capitalism), who do you think will be cut? The high ranking manger/CEO or the lowly worker? I think that the choice would be pretty obvious.
Capitalism does encourage corruption, survival factor, prey on the weak and weak minded, deceit, unfair play, ect. But in Nature predators that often rely on these survival instincts and underhanded tactics often have a better chance of surviving. Plain and simple.
FinsterniS my friend, you just hit on the truth about human evolution. Not only do the people with low IQ’s manage to not find their way out of the gene pool, however they seem more predisposed to having children. The high IQ people are usually too busy earning money to make children, but the dumb ones pump 'em out like poop through a cow. Like it or not, the human race has become too “civilized” to allow for the untimely (or timely, depending on your perspective) demise of these stupid creatures, especially in N.A. society where infant mortality is nearly the lowest in the world, and we live longer than most, and we have universal welfare/healthcare systems to keep the unfortunates alive.
The overall infant mortality rate was 7.2 infant deaths per 1,000 births, continuing a long downward trend 20 Percent over the 1990s. In general, mortality rates were lowest for infants born to Asian and Pacific Islander mothers, 5.0 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, followed by white (6.0), American Indian (8.7), and African American (13.7). Infant mortality rates were higher for Puerto Rican mothers (7.9) than for Mexican (5.:cool:, Cuban (5.5), and Central and South American (5.5) mothers. Compare this with the average infant mortality rate worldwide at 69 deaths per 1,000 live births, according to figures released by the United Nations Population Fund. Still among the lowest in the in the world you say, Crypt?
Capitalism doesn’t mean no social responsibility. For example, welfare for single mothers with children. However, some people will only function at the most basic level, and all the compassion in the world isn’t going to save them.
sorry Moses,
i’m a Canadian. We have better health care here (i.e. less than 70th percentile on the American board exams is reason for a departmental shake-up) and fewer African-Americans and Puerto-Ricans. But compare us to most of Asia and sub-saharan Africa, and we’re doing ok.
