To paraphrase:
Moses admonished Crypt (and all those who were against the death penalty) for not using enough facts.
Then, with no facts Moses stated that the Death Penalty was effective, moral, and just.
Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses.
Sorry about the comment about liking Moses’s B.S. (though it is B.S.) but the discussion I just described was so inane I couldn’t stand it.
As for Moses, anyone who believes that the slaughter of poor minorities is just is a sicko.
If poor are commit more crime, why not trying to help them ? Why do you think there’s FAR more less violence in country like Sweden ?
quote: Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses. -y/b
Didn’t happen. Not once. Moses and i are ideologically opposed on this one, and you and i are in the same camp. Maybe i don’t take the issue as seriously as you. I can’t remember the last time we had a good 'ole execution up here. It’s a dead issue in Canada (i hope).
It seems strange how a uncivilized, lesser-evolved country like USA is among the World’s Superpowers in terms of both GNP, military, industrialization, lasting ideology, and per capita income. However even these factors do not always determine evolutionary level. It depends on what you believe evolution is.
Is evolution humane and good, or should it be? Certainly animals have evolved over time, but that does not make them more humane and “good.” Usually it just means they are more capable of surviving and/or more efficient killers.
FinsterniS,
“Would it be because the poor are the ones who are more likely to and actually commit the majority of these crimes?”
Again this is what is wrong with America, and in a larger sense, capitalism. We are more worried about getting what is ours than caring for others. After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it. That is why there isn’t much of a “collectiveness” in America. Collectiveness centers more toward socialism and communism. You don’t live in a communists system expecting to use the phrase “I own this” very a lot, nor should you expect “lets help each other regardless” in a capitalistic society. Now as this moment and as long as America remains capitalist, there’s simply no changing the fact that the poor classes will indeed commit the majority of such crimes and should be punished accordingly.
Now, “psychologist know that killer are often people that suffer inside.”
True, there have been reported murders of people who are mentally unstable. However, in America you can plead for the “insanity defense,” which if proven will not result in capital punishment, but more likely psychiatric care. The true question, do murders use the “insanity defense” only to cover themselves and escape a 1st degree verdict? That is for the jury to decide based on cross-examinations, evidence, experts, and facts.
cystic crypt
“Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, David Millgard and Thomas Sophonow were each Canadians…”
Crypt, didn’t know these people were Canadian. For that reason, I cannot try this case. Now I’m debating capital punishment under the American justice system. Can you please provide me the names of any wrongly convicted there? Reason being is that I do not have enough experience with the Canadian legal system to properly analyze it. For all I know there is [Canadian law] no such thing as self-defense or manslaughter, but only 1st-degree murder on all cases.
After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it.
False
False
False
Thats a quite American conception of Capitalist. Well, no, the fittest does’nt survive in Capitalist, nor the peaple with high intelligence or anything. Capitalist encourage everything that is bestial, and while we ARE bestial, with such powerful weapon as nuclear bomb we cannot afford to be too much emotional. Humanity is in a stage where it need to restructure his vision of the world so it can survive.
And individuals, fighters in your so call fight for evolution, are killing the planet with pollution.
I can also say that this vision cost USA a lot, your scientist are’nt working together. You are making “lot” of discoveries without being able to articulate them to a bigger system.
And if you are right, why not be anarchist. No rules, only the “fittest” will survive.
Moses - fair enough.
and we have murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, manslaughter, and self-defence as well (our justice, and gov’t systems based more on British law than American). Just no capital punishment. But despite the fact that we are so much more civilized then you Americans (jk) we still manage to wrongfully convict people for murder. If it can happen here, why not Texas? (of course that’s missing the larger point that society should not be killing people :smile: )
“Well, no, the fittest does’nt survive in Capitalist, nor the peaple with high intelligence or anything.”
Wait… are you trying to say that by and large, those who have the strongest will to prosper and have a set economic plan won’t have a better chance of succeeding in a capitalistic world than someone who isn’t? Somehow, I don’t by that. Also, those with a higher intelligence do have a better chance of succeeding. Are you trying to say that a person with the IQ 67 with a GPA of 1.0 would have a better chance of survival in a capitalistic environment than someone with an IQ of 200 and a GPA of 2.0? If that is true, why even bother going to school or learn a skilled trade? And If this is true, then the majority of CEOs could be high school dropouts instead of college students. Also what is bestial does deal a lot with Economic Darwinism. Gov. Angus King has called the 1990s a period of ‘‘Economic Darwinism.’’ King describes the modern economy as ‘‘a no-holds-barred competition in which only the fit will survive’’ and ‘‘an unsentimental, remorseless competition.’’ Look at Bill Gates one of the most manipulative, deceptive, and deceitful person out there –- not to mention the richest man of all time. Do you think he just stumbled on his fortune by chance?
Why not anarchy? Nah, I’m a capitalist turned communist. Just because America is capitalist, doesn’t mean I am. I myself really don’t support survival of the fittest (the morals, not the scientific theory), but as long as America is capitalist, I’m afraid I am going have to support capital punishment.
Intelligence CAN be a factor, but a minor factor. Capitalist encourage lies, corruption.
Also capitalism is full of virus, like the peaple who live only by selling/buying actions. Not really contructive…
And… lets say the president of a bank. Are you trying to say he’s the fittest within his organisation ? Is he more productive than any ?
Anyway the “fittest survive” is not a really good excuse because in our society, every single individual can have its place and be productive, every single individual can be a good citizen.
In the Nature, weak animal perish because they are slowing down their group, are you saying that peaple with like 89 of IQ* are slowing down society ?
In Economic Darwinism, fittest does not always mean “physical fitness” but “mental fitness” and “survival fitness.” Hmmm… not exactly sure how you would gauge a animal’s IQ. Even then if you gauge the income of the 89- IQ and 200+ IQ, I think you will notice quite an income gap. Simply put, those with lower IQ s (while not always) will get the lower ranking and paying jobs compared with those with higher IQ s. And when it comes time for layoffs (another problem with capitalism), who do you think will be cut? The high ranking manger/CEO or the lowly worker? I think that the choice would be pretty obvious.
Capitalism does encourage corruption, survival factor, prey on the weak and weak minded, deceit, unfair play, ect. But in Nature predators that often rely on these survival instincts and underhanded tactics often have a better chance of surviving. Plain and simple.
FinsterniS my friend, you just hit on the truth about human evolution. Not only do the people with low IQ’s manage to not find their way out of the gene pool, however they seem more predisposed to having children. The high IQ people are usually too busy earning money to make children, but the dumb ones pump 'em out like poop through a cow. Like it or not, the human race has become too “civilized” to allow for the untimely (or timely, depending on your perspective) demise of these stupid creatures, especially in N.A. society where infant mortality is nearly the lowest in the world, and we live longer than most, and we have universal welfare/healthcare systems to keep the unfortunates alive.
The overall infant mortality rate was 7.2 infant deaths per 1,000 births, continuing a long downward trend 20 Percent over the 1990s. In general, mortality rates were lowest for infants born to Asian and Pacific Islander mothers, 5.0 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, followed by white (6.0), American Indian (8.7), and African American (13.7). Infant mortality rates were higher for Puerto Rican mothers (7.9) than for Mexican (5.:cool:, Cuban (5.5), and Central and South American (5.5) mothers. Compare this with the average infant mortality rate worldwide at 69 deaths per 1,000 live births, according to figures released by the United Nations Population Fund. Still among the lowest in the in the world you say, Crypt?
Capitalism doesn’t mean no social responsibility. For example, welfare for single mothers with children. However, some people will only function at the most basic level, and all the compassion in the world isn’t going to save them.
sorry Moses,
i’m a Canadian. We have better health care here (i.e. less than 70th percentile on the American board exams is reason for a departmental shake-up) and fewer African-Americans and Puerto-Ricans. But compare us to most of Asia and sub-saharan Africa, and we’re doing ok.
Well us Africans and Latin Americans are definitely moving on up! :smile:
“Capitalism doesn’t mean no social responsibility”
Wrong. It was not until after the Great Depression (largely due to capitalism) with the New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society (all liberal programs) did we see such practices as standardized government subsidization for those in poverty. And this was based by popular mandate! The problem with capitalism is that we have no moral or social responsibilities and obligations to such people. Evidence would be Reagan cutting government welfare programs to promote military buildup. And why should we if we intend to get what is ours in life (material goods, fortune, money, ect)? Helping others, that is just an unwanted nuisance that keeps us from achieving that goal. That is why I hate the capitalistic system. It offers no real opportunities or benefits to those who are economically and mentally disadvantaged.
“some people will only function at the most basic level, and all the compassion in the world isn’t going to save them.”
Does that me we should take all of those psychologically and mentally challenged from Mental Hospitals and dump them into the streets to fend for themselves? I would hope not.
(largely due to capitalism)
Largely ? Not totally ?
Note that you are maybe rigth, im just curious about the “Largely”.
How can someone support capital punishment, if the judical system does not follow any international rules, and does not allow ppl from other contries, accused of murder in the US, to contact their embassy? … Just one more point why i can’t support it.
Well the reason I said “largely” due to capitalism, is because some capitalist diehards brand every slump as result of certain “special” conditions. Such conditions as failure of the stock exchange, not enough credit, too much debt, inflation, deflation, lack of oil, lack of “confidence”, etc., etc., etc., and the current slump will undoubtedly be blamed on terrorism. None of these excuses get to the root of the problem - the capitalist mode of production.
“Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.” - Aldolf Galland
“The crate? The crate matters not. It is the man who pilots the crate that truely counts.” - R
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-26 11:38 ]
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-26 11:42 ]
