G1 Land fighter in Tobruk

@Procas:

The topic is pretty straightforward, is it a good idea to fly the fighter from Slovakia to Tobruk on G1, to guard against the british attack on the territory which is now becoming popular with several players.

It would mean that you’d have to land a Tac in Rome, which very slightly reduces potential scramble potential, but I think this is a worthy tradeoff. I’ve been raided in Tobruk a couple of times, so I think I will try this next time I play as Germany, it should help to throw a wrench in the UK’s strategy.

Good idea, Bravo.

As Germany I always do it, and as Italy I always ask for it.

If Britain can kill 2/3 of your transports with Taranto and ramming a cruiser/fighter into the dest/transport off of Malta, also having them kill all or nearly all of your Tobruk troops (which they can also do with pretty good odds) makes Egypt nearly impossible.

On G2:

I am usually using German air to kill what’s left of Britain from Taranto and then having them land on Alexandria to prepare for the all-in Egypt.

If UK is going to let me Sea Lion, then things get a bit more complicated.

Even if I G2 Barbarosa, I don’t yet need the planes on the eastern front. It’s nice to bomb Ukraine/Novgorod, yes, but I am pretty sure that if you bomb Ukraine on G2 it can land in a spot to take part in a possible Egypt strafe on G3 or to bomb Ukraine a second time on G3.

I usually find the plane more useful in southern italy than Torb.

I never do it, but people have done it against me.

I have never land the fighter in Tobruk, only in Rome. I will land the Fighter in Tobruk next game and the TB in Rome, see if it pays off…

Also: i allways try to take out the UK Cruiser in sz 91 using just one sub. I know the odd’s are against me, but if i hit 1st round, the payoff is huge (and te sub survives :-D). In most cases it prevent the UK player from taking Tobruk 1st round.

@Don:

I have never land the fighter in Tobruk, only in Rome. I will land the Fighter in Tobruk next game and the TB in Rome, see if it pays off…

Also: i allways try to take out the UK Cruiser in sz 91 using just one sub. I know the odd’s are against me, but if i hit 1st round, the payoff is huge (and te sub survives :-D). In most cases it prevent the UK player from taking Tobruk 1st round.

I’m with you on that.  I know it’s a risky move, but if you hit that C it’s huge.

I’ve never been a big fan of getting the German air force involved down in Africa.

If the UK Cruiser in 91 was not sunk on Germany’s turn, as the Italian player, I would ask for that fighter in Tobruk.

I also realize there’s a consensus of members that basically advise against German (or Italian for that matter) involvement in Africa.  They say it is a distraction to the ultimate goal of the USSR.

Sub vs. Cruiser is a perfect 50/50 match, is it not?

Not really a ton worse/better than your 40/20/40 off of the coast of Canada.

For where you jam your single German sub, it just depends if you want to, potentially, save an Italian transport after UK 1 (remember, he can still send a fighter @ 3 vs. a destroyer @ 2), or, potentially, sink a british TT that is painful them to replace.

I’ve tried both, and I tend to favor trying to sink the dest/TT off of Canada. That cruiser is probably going to die to either Italy or Germany, and at no worse, and very probably better, odds than 50/50.

Yes, Sub vs. Cruiser is a 50/50. 1/3 Sub wins immediately, 1/2*2/3=1/3 Cruiser wins if sub misses, and 1/3 repeat.

The problem is that Germany has 1 sub that can only hit SZ106 or SZ109. If I could send 2 subs to each of SZ110 and SZ111 and attack the cruiser in SZ91 I would probably do that since it messes with Taranto, but that’s impossible given the starting positions of the submarines, so hitting SZ106 it is.

UK can only kill Tobruk or Taranto.  He cannot do both in one turn.

Attacking Taranto is a very high odds battle for UK–even higher since YG pointed out yet another UK fighter can fly to the sacrificial carrier there (although it has no more moves at that point, it would die unless the carrier goes undamaged)

Attacking Tobruk isn’t.  The odds are good, but not great and you have to use your landing force up there, rather than to smash the Italians in Somalia.

If you attack Taranto, you are nerfing Italy for the entire game.

If you attack Tobruk, you are killing a stranded stack of units that would need a ton of support to conquer Egypt in any event, or losing the chance to fight over $4 for 4 turns.

Which would you choose as UK?  I used to Tobruk/UK strong africa all the time until someone pointed out how damn awesome Taranto is every single game and how easy it is to turtle UK every single game with 1 german transport and 1 carrier (around our game 50…we are on Game 94 now).

I had some success today moving the Italian stack to Alexandria and reinforcing with German air (which then got a nice opportunity to kill off some UK fleet at Suez). It’s just enough to keep pressure on Egypt, which can lock down planes and prevent them from reinforcing India or providing counters against Japan.

I guess if you are seeing a lot of attacks on Tobruk, that would probably put an end to it. We don’t see too many attacks on Tobruk though, is better to save the Med transport and hit the Italians south of Egypt IMO (just don’t like the enemy behind me). We see Taranto a lot, and like someone else said if the Italian fleet in sz97 (BB) is taken out, then those Italians in Tobruk are aren’t all that scary.  Yea from Tobruk they could/will advance to Alex, with German air cover.

Even if the Italians swap in Italian planes to free up the Luftwaffe in Alex they will be in a stalemate. The Italians are hard pressed to bring in more ground because the Italian navy is too weak to take a hit from the RAF if they leave the safety of the Italian harbor (air base). If they decide to build an Italian carrier then that is good news for Russia, and you still have a couple options.

There’s really no downside to landing it in Tobruk. It prevents the Italian stack from being wiped out, and what are you going to use it for in G2 anyway? You’re going to use it to counter the remains of the Taranto fleet, which it can reach from Tobruk just fine, landing at the airbase in Rome in noncom, from which it can hit any target you were planning to attack with it in G3.

Landing a tac in Rome in G1 instead makes zero difference in the Taranto calculation for the UK, if UK is going to go for it (as it almost always does), you’re not going to scramble it anyway. Never ever will a UK player say “I wasn’t going to do the Taranto raid, but since the 3rd scrambler is a tac instead of a fighter now I will”.

As UK I’m probably going to hit that Tobruk stack in UK1 if the fighter isn’t there, but it just ain’t worth it if it is.

Getting to keep the Italian units instead of having them wiped off the map before you get to move them, you now have the option of advancing to Alexandria again with German air cover, denying UK its original possessions NO and projecting an air threat to Suez. Or if all you wanted to do was rescue those units and bring them back to Europe, you only have the chance to do that if they live to see the second round.

Elk summed up my views pretty well, except I’d change his “no difference” to “ever so slight difference” about the tactical bomber vs. fighter on the Italian air base.

@taamvan:

UK can only kill Tobruk or Taranto.   He cannot do both in one turn.

This is not true. Assuming Germany does not drop a plane in Tobruk, you can do both. This may have been the point of this thread. It’ll probably cost you the UK transport, no doubt, and the odds aren’t fantastic, but they are quite good. (Sorry if I misunderstood you and you meant that they can’t do both if Germany puts the tac on Rome and the fighter on Tobruk.)

If you kill the Tobruk Italians and do Taranto, Egypt is pretty much saved from falling to Italy (unless Sea Lion or something else non-“standard” happens). Italy is left with one transport and not enough ground units left in Africa to seal the deal. Germany also no longer has a place to land its planes on G2 to prep for an I2/G3/I3 hit/strafe/conquer combo. (Speaking of which, it could also be a diceluck conquer/go home/party hard combo, if you’re lucky, or UK can retreat and Italy can move in then have the Germans reinforce Egypt with the planes until Italy can get some logistical problems solved.)

Only doing Taranto by no means saves Egypt if Germany is willing to commit the Luftwaffe on G2/G3. To save Egypt then, UK has to buy hard in the middle east/africa, and unless they took a big gamble and built a factory there on UK1, their odds are very, very dicey when it comes to holding it.

Doing only Tobruk, and not Taranto, is probably not optimal, I’d argue (weakly), but (because) I don’t have much experience there.

Teslas;  Veeery interesting…Both??

Well, at least as I recall, hes bringing up to 1 strat, 1 tac, 1 fighter, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 1 carrier to Taranto.

Don’t you need the tac, and any available fighters from malta and Gibraltar to get odds to smash Tobruk (land)? Also at least one cruiser or more to kill the destroyer and transport since all your air is going to attack the land stack?

Sorry if my units are off, would take some time to grab all the setout charts to be certain…

You don’t need the UK tac in Tobruk to still have decent odds.

Alexandria -> Tobruk (2x inf, 1x art, 1x tank)
Egypt -> TT -> Tobruk (1x inf, 1x art)
Egypt -> Tobruk (1x mech)

65% odds to win, 4% chance for everyone dead, so 69%, let’s say 70%, chance to have it go in your favor. The point is you want those guys dead, because Italy can never reasonably afford to replace them. You can. From South Africa, from India, whatever.

Once those Italians are dead, and once 2/3 Italian transports are dead, a bit of reinforcing Egypt is more than enough to hold it against all practical threats. If you build an mIC there on UK2 (or if you’re overly ballsy, UK1), you’re pretty much good to go if you take your Maltese air left from Taranto and stick it on Egypt on UK2.

If you get boned on dice in Tobruk… and that’s a 31% chance… then… well that’s not good. The Allies don’t win by not taking chances, however.

The tac makes it 92% odds (1% draw), so yeah, that’s strictly better. But to do that, you need to send fighters off of London down to Taranto. That’s risky for all the reasons you’re already thinking.

The Italian dest/TT in SZ 96 is easily killed by your Cruiser in 91 + the fighter on Gibraltar. If you’re unlucky, and the Cruiser in 91 was killed by a German sub, then it’s still likely worth sending the Gibraltan fighter to try and get the job done by itself, though I don’t know if I’d also try Tobruk in this instance. CR+FT vs. DD is a ~2% chance to get screwed. FT vs. DD is a 25% chance to lose. A 25% chance to fail the amphibious assault mixed with the inherent 31% fail chance on the Tobruk fight as posted above ends up being something like a 43% chance to lose horribly in Tobruk if you don’t bring both the cruiser and fighter to SZ 96. (You still have a small chance to win without the amphibious assault, and that’s included ion the 43%.) That’s a bit too risky for my blood.

How aggressive you can be on UK1 depends entirely on Germany’s buy. If you see G1 inf/art purchases, freakin’ go for it. If you see something that is a bit more scary for UK, then not taking that 69/31 chance on Tobruk is something I couldn’t fault you for.

Thanks Teslas for laying all the odds and detail out.

I suppose that the fighter on Malta can join either sea battle or the land battle and boost your chances (even in the absence of the extra cruiser) since you already have one from Gibraltar (SZ 96 or SZ 97 w carrier only) and one from London that can come to Taranto SZ 97 only.

I usually see that Tobruk stack as a “Rule of 2s” stack (“never rely on 2s to defend your stax, no matter how many, because 2s don’t hit good”) so you are really showing that with the odds…they only get one tank and the rest is junk.

Great fork Tobruk+Taranto I guess im not a real risk taker after all…

I’ve never considered doing both, but I really like how it’s laid out here.  If successful, Italy has effectively been eliminated from the game before they even get going.