Holland / Dutch SOLUTION proposal, and other notes

I like your suggestion for the battle of River Plate. (Had to look that one up)

I’m still confused by “coastal ships”  I thought they couldn’t move out of their starting zone.  Sorry if I’m completely wrong, I always found the coastal thing confusing.

My opinions on Holland/Dutch Indies
1-It is neutral until attacked, then it becomes it’s own minor nation under the control of Russia (only because they don’t get any other nations to control) sort of like your rule 3.

*I would also rule that if not attacked they cannot declare war until the same turn as the US, since it was Japans attack on Pearl that lead to them declaring war on Japan.

I never liked the rule that the Dutch do not collect income and cannot rebuild their fleet/army.

The Rheims/Holland proposals look good. I’m not sure I’d give France 2 more forts but that’s up to the powers that be.

I’d like to see Japan have the chance to influence the indigenous populations of the Dutch East Indies to join the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere if/when Holland falls with a Vichy type roll.

The idea of a cruiser in the S. Atlantic is great.

And I’m like a dog with a bone on this one but…. U boat pens (after the fall of France perhaps) would be awesome too. Just sayin’.

All these look really cool. We are having a “Pow Wow” Saturday to discuss some game issues and we will be bringing up a lot of your guys suggestions!

Just thinking out side the box hhhmmm, would it be possible to stretch out Germany’s first turn over two turns, and slightly change the blitzkrieg impulses.

In our short exposure to the game some of the time table is a bit off. We generally leave both Norway and Holland for later (Holland much later as it turns out). We are more focused on taking Paris to invoke the Vichy rule and crushing the UK fleet on G1 using the impulses (well Poland is in there too LOL).

Could you allow things to play out in a more historical timeline and have Germany do the things it did in 1939, but not attack France until G2 (say 1940) where it would get its main blitzkrieg (2nd impulse)? It might work if you put in some restrictions on the allies (but you would might need to tweak the set-up).

Just here me out:

1. Germany is allowed to attack Poland, activate the Axis Minor Powers, and invade Holland or Norway on G1 as they feel fit. They get to blitzkrieg their units into Warsaw w/mini 2nd impulse (units used to attack W Poland can attack again w/air support). They can’t attack France or UK until after Warsaw falls (would be G2).

2. “The Phoney War”, being unprepared (caught with their pants down) the French/English have some restrictions placed on them on their first turn and are not allowed to make attacks. In a reaction to the attack on Poland, and possibly Holland or Norway they can build (using their staring income) and NCM units with some restrictions. They’re naval units can only move one space, and they can’t remove any starting units from the continent (air) but could bring in some reinforcements if the want too. They could also activate pro allied countries too.

3. The Germans get to fully use their impulses now to smoke anyone they want to on G2. Land battles in France are done first to invoke the Vichy rule (including 2nd impulse to reach Paris). This will determine which French ships will fight w/UK ships if they are moved to the same sz’s. After Paris falls then perform battles as normal (with in impulse rules).

On G2 the Germans would be able to use the forces staged in Holland to hit Reims along with any mech/tanks bought for W Germany on G1 (bypass the forts), then into Paris w/2nd impulse. The allies being able to NCM could make things tough on the Germans, but the Germans would also get to use units bought on G1, along with units bought in the first impulse as well (need to anticipate what the allies might do). The French will be harder to take down spending their starting income (10 IPCs), but will have more loot to raid having been paid in the collect income phase, and you could also give the Dutch a starting income (6 IPCs) to loot G1 as well making the Germans 2nd impulse more potent.

Not sure it would work, just a theory that might be cool to try to work out. Is difficult to determine what the allies could do w/NCM between G1 & G2, but I like the thought of a Phoney War of just positioning. Germany could also fully move/build navy G1 to anticipate what the Western allies will do at sea, and use the impulses to track them down. It could lead to to many scenarios though, and throw the balance off. It would also delay the Italians as they won’t be able to enter the war until It2 (after Paris falls), and then there is the Russians and US rolling dice to get going, not sure if Germany could afford a delay.

I would also use Gargs other suggestions like #2, once Holland falls that the DEI and Dutch units in the Pac need to be activated territory by territory. The FEC shouldn’t just get all the income w/o claiming them individually. Not sure if the Dutch units should be able to move in the Pac until activated though.

Holland isn’t much of a choice to bypass the Maginot line if you can’t get those units to Paris. It would be much easier to some how incorporate going through Holland on Germany’s first turn, but also have those units make it to Paris (like Garg’s #1 extra impulse for Holland rule). The game would take on a whole new direction (maybe not a good one) if the allies could do some limited NCM in the name of The Phoney War before Germany calls their bluff and delivers a knock out punch to the French.

@Gargantua:

The holland conundrum is a serious one.

NO chance at taking paris, fighting + 4 infantry.  VS capturing paris, 2 rolls at +5 and 6 inf at +2.

Definetly better to stomp throught the Mag line…

And that doesn’t mention the fact that as is - if you stomp Holland, you F-over Japan in the pac currently, with the whole DEI turning Brit.

Exactly

Taking a closer look at your proposal #1 (I assume you meant to say Reims instead of Marsells)

1. If Germany attacks HOLLAND G1, any units surviving that attack and are in HOLLAND, get the option to attack Marseilles Reims (east france) immediately after, but BEFORE the 2nd impulse begins.  (In theory, allowing a small triple impulse).

This would definitely work in Germany’s favor and allow them to bypass the Maginot line, then push all the way to Paris (the prize) with those units. You might even suggest that units in Reims def -1 if the Germans bypass the Maginot line and blitz through the low countries because they are caught off guard (but that could have a lingering effect on the fort rules in general unless it was a stipulation for only the Maginot line). The FEC immediately acquiring all the DEI if/when Holland falls still needs to be fixed (you have some great suggestions).

Looking at the original set-up the Germans aren’t really set to get to Paris the way they did (lack of mech/tanks on the western front IMO, see later). I know they can crash through the Mag line (Reims) with their slow moving inf from W Germ & Bavaria and capture Paris in the 2nd impulse using those units, but that really doesn’t feel like the mechanized blitz that got them there in WWII.

What if at the end of Germany’s first impulse all mechanized units are allowed a second attack (would include tanks, mech and art being dragged w/mech) and you can also use air units that didn’t take part in attacks yet. Swap out some of the starting inf in W Germany for mech (say three), and maybe slide an art and tank over from Stettin (tanks from Stettin can still make it to Holland, just puts it in the right direction). You would use mechanized units to attack Holland in the first impulse, and if successful then blitz them to clear Reims from Holland at the end of the 1st impulse (bypassing the Mag line). The rest of the slower moving inf from W Germany and Bavaria could now NCM into Reims (fort would be gone) at the end of the the 1st impulse to be used in the 2nd impulse (assault on Paris). Any fast moving units built at the end of the 1st impulse that are placed in W Germany could also be used to assault Paris in the 2nd impulse (path through Reims would be cleared). This feels more like a blitzkrieg to me.

Could also have all units def at -1 in this blitz at the end of the 1st impulse because they are caught off guard to better insure the outcome (wouldn’t want Germany to be halted). With the above, I’m sure the Germans could find some use of this mechanized blitz at the end of the 1st impulse to the east as well (haven’t really looked at it). I also strongly share the sense that you should be able to effectively circumvent the Mag line through the low countries, and still be able to reach Paris G1 (with those units). Other wise it is like you are penalized, especially when you consider the FEC gains so much income in doing so.

You still have the option of crashing through the Mag line, so maybe that border could be beefed up a bit so that going through Holland is a better option. I like the thought of adding a second fort to Reims to boost def along the German front (the Swiss get two forts). I’m somewhat unclear how 2 forts would work though. It says the Swiss 2 forts allows them to roll in the second round of combat according to the fort rules on pg32. So w/2 forts you get 4 dice (2 from each fort) at 5 or less that would last two rounds regardless of if they still have inf to support them in the second round?  Does the double fort boost your inf +2, or is it doubled to +4 in the first round?

I think that Germany attacking both Poland (Sept 1939) and France (May 1940) at the same time throws the timeline line off in my head because these events are 9-10 months apart, but I also feel like the game needs Paris to fall G1, or many things would be affected with the allies able to go in between. To me with the Germans basically taking a double turn G1 stretches from the fall 1939 attack on Poland, through the “Phoney War” where the allies didn’t do much (don’t get a turn) and right to the fall of Paris (spring of 1940).

It would be cool to explore a scenario where the Germans aren’t allowed to capture Paris until G2 and the allies have some limited NCM between the attack on Poland, and the fall of France (as mentioned in my earlier post). It would be a nightmare to foresee the many options and play hell on balance, so the way the game gives Germany two turns G1 is the best approach IMO. It just needs a tweak, and there are some great idea’s floating around.

We generally have units in Danzig (Elbing) join in an attack on W Poland w/some Czec & Stettin units then use part of this combined force to drop Warsaw in the 2nd impulse. I see how you could take Warsaw right off the bat though, and it does seem off.

Yea I’m not crazy about how the E Poland units just stand idle after the other two Polish territories are captured, but if they are allowed to attack the Germans in W Poland, or Warsaw then the Russians get the benefit of an empty East Poland so as the allies you would always use those units to attack with. It does limit what Poland can do though, so in a sense I agree that Poland could be re-vamped.

Maybe a similar (or even the same) rule that governs both Poland & Holland could be adopted.

1. Start with stripping away Warsaw’s minor IC (doesn’t really do much anyway) and make both the Dutch and Poles Allied Minor Powers that can produce units at their capital. Give them a 4 IPC (maybe 3 IPCs) fixed base income similar to Axis Minor Powers.

2. Swap out one of the starting inf from each of their capitals for a UK inf at set-up to symbolize that the UK activated their capitals before the game starts. This will give both Holland and Warsaw a 4 IPC starting income for builds on UK1, unless Germany takes their capital(s) and the plunder (extra incentive). UK is also allowed to build a minor IC on both Holland, or Warsaw if they have or regain control.

3. Both of these Minor Allied Powers are controlled by UK of coarse, and take their turn at the same time. UK also collects income posted on the map of the capital territory similar to how Germany & Axis Minor Powers work. This gives the UK full control over the units in the capitals, but not their other possessions (also puts UK at war if either of these capitals are attacked).

4. Because the capitals were activated these Minor Allied Powers are allowed to NCM their own units around as long as they end movement in  one of their original territories (or next to for ships). They can not attack, and will only def, unless fully absorbed by the allies.

5a) The UK (FEC/Anz) would still need to activate (NCM into) the other territories individually (like the DEI for instance) to gain full control over more units and the income generated. If the UK (or its Commonwealth) fully activates a territory belonging to one of these countries they are absorbed into that power (swap out units).

5b) In order to absorb the Dutch fleet you need to activate the territory adjacent to it (coastal ships would stay coastal though). If the Dutch move their fleet adjacent to a territory you activated (even at the same time), you would also absorb the fleet (minus the coastal ships that can still move adjacent to any orig DEI ter with-in movement range). You could also roll dice for the Dutch fleet if Holland falls to determine the fate of the fleet.

6. If their turn comes up and they are in control of their capital (maybe it was liberated) they get the set income of 4 IPCs for the capital in the collect income phase. They also receive a 1 IPC bonus for each of their other original territories still in their possession (or in allied control if later in the game). This would also include if for some reason on UKs first turn Holland is still Dutch. They would get 4 IPCs for the capital and 1 IPC for each of the DEI territories in Dutch or allied control (up to 6 additional IPCs) for a total of 10 IPCs. The Poles would also get the 4 IPCs for Warsaw, and a 1 IPC bonus for both W Pol & E Pol if allies are in control. Once a non capital territory is captured by the enemy, or absorbed/liberated by the allies it can’t go back to the original owner (Poles or Dutch), and the income goes to whomever has control of it.

7. The Russians would still have to fight their way into Poland as a combatant regardless of if they are at war w/Germany or not. If for some reason the Germans don’t get Warsaw, or W Poland G1 then the Poles could NCM units from E Poland to either of them (clearing the way for the Russians in E Poland). The UK inf in Warsaw could even activate the Polish units in E Poland to fully absorb them into the UK (collect the income) to deny the territory from the Russians. This would allow the Germans to take it though, so I can’t see it happening.

7b) (Optional)
Later in the game Warsaw is captured by the Russians (not liberated), the Poles would become a Minor Allied Power under Russia with the same rules as above. Russia would control the power, and units produced. They could even build a minor IC.

Personally I think Holland and DEI should be treated as two different nations.

Because attack Holland just makes too much trouble for Japan and it doesn’t really reflect how the DEI were involed in WW2.
Maybe the DEI could be activated / cpntrolled by Anzac.

@americancyco:

Personally I think Holland and DEI should be treated as two different nations.

Because attack Holland just makes too much trouble for Japan and it doesn’t really reflect how the DEI were involed in WW2.
Maybe the DEI could be activated / cpntrolled by Anzac.

That is what we are looking at. If Holland falls the Anz or FEC (Far East Command also referred to as India India if you like) can activate the DEI one at a time to claim for themselves along with the Dutch units on them. The thing is to make it worth it for Germany to attack Holland early, and have those units also make it to Paris. The way it is now the Germans don’t take Holland because it is no benefit to them, and the FEC get instant rich. Its like winning the Lotto for them.

Holland can be bypassed but you have to realize that when Paris falls and if Holland is still not taken they become pro-Allied. Believe me if this happens UK can reinforce there and it becomes a very big thorn in the Axis side.

The DEI rules are in place for game balance more than historically accurate rules.

I havent been involved in any game or have heard of any game where the outcomes or the tactics have been exactly the same. To me, this is what makes a game really great is the re-playability.

Thanks for all the input!

I think what Tigerman posted is how it worked in the older rule set (Holland becomes pro allies if/when Paris falls). That rule set also had Holland start as a strict neutral, and if any Dutch territory was attacked by the axis, or if Paris falls then all Dutch territories become pro allied allowing them to be activated or reinforced by the allies. I believe the new rule set has the Dutch and English allied, so you would have the option to reinforce if Holland is still in Dutch hands (see later). In the older rule set you also had to activate each territory individually, not just move into one of them and get them all. The FEC wasn’t given all the DEI if Holland (or Paris) was taken, the FEC and Anz had to go in to claim each island (I think). There is also more Dutch navy in the Pacific then before, and you roll for them now (which is cool).

The main issue of the old rules to me was because of turn order the Japanese could start taking the DEI on their first turn w/o any consequences (by rule they could attack any strict or pro allied neutral w/o going to war w/UK). The Japanese started grabbing a couple of the Dutch Islands on J1 (1939), before the UK/Anz could get there to activate them for them selves (forcing a DOW by the Japanese). There was also no link between the Dutch and the Brits that would require a Japanese DOW on the UK to invade the DEI.

I liked how the mechanics worked in the old rules regarding the Dutch as far as how the FEC/Anz needed to activate each island individually to claim income and units (slower process), instead of how the new rules just give all the income to the FEC if/when Holland falls (which is rare now), or any DEI territory is attacked (which is also delayed until Japan goes to war w/UK). Maybe the allies need this early, instant influx of income going to the FEC from the DEI in the newer rules to balance the game though (IDK).

In the new rules I haven’t looked at the UK reinforcing Holland if the Germans don’t take it G1. The Dutch and English are allied so I believe you have that option, but it sounds like the Dutch would stay Dutch (not activated as UK units), and wouldn’t be able to join the UK units in an attack, they would only defend (which seems off to me if the UK actually moved ground units over some how). I’m also not sure it would be a good idea to reinforce Holland being that close to the German machine.

I think we need to blend some of the old rules w/the new to make it work. Maybe the Dutch (Holland) needs to go back to being a pro allied neutral w/stings attached to UK (see later).

1. If the Germans take the Dutch capital, then you roll for the ships to see which are scuttled, and which remain in Dutch control to be turned over to the FEC/Anz later (maybe allow axis to get some, but it could get weird in the Pacific IMO). The UK (FEC/Anz) would need to activate each Dutch island individually (if capital is taken) to gain the income and absorb the units (includes surviving ships next to those islands). Orig Dutch units defend only (until absorbed), but their units and ships can move to any orig Dutch territory or sz adjacent to it with in movement range.

2. If the Germans forgo taking Holland then the UK can fully activate the Dutch by NCM a UK ground unit into the the Dutch capital (bmr transport?). If UK activates Holland (capital), then all the DEI instantly become FEC (income), along with the units on them, or ships next to them (ships aren’t rolled for in this case, they are turned over to the FEC). (Maybe similar capital rules as above could work for all neutrals that have more then one territory?)

3. You could also allow the UK a liberation option w/Holland. If in the event the Germans take Holland (capital), but the UK is able to liberate it then any of the Dutch territories and units that are still Dutch fully join the UK/FEC. They basically become like Free French and all income and units go to UK in Europe, and FEC in the Pacific (you could leave them as Dutch, but they act like the English in every way).

**This will at least force the Germans to attack Holland G1 (to keep the DEI from fully becoming FEC if UK activates Holland), and if you use the liberation option the Euro axis would also have to keep Holland reinforced too (at least until Japan gets going).

You also need to have a Dutch/UK alliance in place that would force the Japanese to DOW w/UK (FEC) if they start invading the DEI. Would be simple because the Dutch Royalty fled to England (unlike the French that formed the Vichy Gov). So if Holland is attacked or activated then you treat all Dutch possessions as if they are UK politically, and a DOW w/UK would be needed for the Japanese to invade the DEI. I don’t think it would be in Japans best interest to have the Germans delay attacking Holland G1, allowing the UK the opportunity to fully activate the Dutch capital. I think the Japanese would fear all the DEI (income and units) instantly becoming FEC just so they could grab an island or two (maybe I’m wrong).

**If you think there is a possible loophole above then just say the Dutch, English & French have an alliance from the beginning, and if the Dutch are in control of their capital the UK (and French if Paris doesn’t fall) would consider a Japanese invasion of the DEI as an act of war against them all. The Japanese would be able to invade the French territories J1, because the French capital (Paris) is generally in axis hands on G1 (invoking the Vichy rule bypassing the alliance).

I do still feel there are some short comings on bypassing the Maginot line through Holland, and not having those units available to capture Paris on G1. Maybe the intent was for Paris to fall on G2 instead of G1, but that doesn’t seem right either why would you wait? Two options have come up that basically give you a 3rd impulse.

1. (Garg) Allowing all units that attack Holland a second attack at the end of the 1st impulse. A special rule just for Holland, that would allow you to use units that attacked Holland to also clear Reims from the north, bypassing the Mag line. You then would have those same units available to participate in the 2nd impulse to attack Paris.

2. Allowing all mechanized units to participate in a second battle at the end of the 1st impulse (mech/tanks and air not involved in the first battle). This would do similar as above, but might have an effect on other battles as well.

3. A high bread of both 1 & 2 to allow only mechanizes units that attacked Holland to go on to a second battle in the 1st impulse. This would also allow you to use those units to clear Reims from the north in the first impulse (bypass the Mag line) and you could then NCM inf from W Germany into German occupied Reims for the Paris assault in the 2nd impuse. Might need to swap some inf in W Germany for mech/tanks in both options 2 & 3.

** Could also rule in for all 3 options that when attacking Reims G1 through Holland  (not coming through the Mag line) that all French units are caught off guard and def -1.

I dont know if this is the correct/or best solution either but this is what my friends and I came up with.

We treat Dutch as a neutral, that turns pro allies if France falls.
We treat the DEI (for lack of a better name) as a FEC minor allie (sort of like German minor allies)
The DEI is only activated in one of two ways 1)They are attacked by an Axis power, Japan most likely or 2) The US goes to war with Japan.
Before they are activated, they are a strict neutral, that allied powers cannot enter.

This way if Japan picks a fight with them for that first attack, they are attacking a nautral nation and not declaring war on the FEC.  If they continue to fight with the FEC on any turn after they become a minor ally, then Japan would be declaring war on the FEC.  This gives Japan one turn to try and grab as much of the DEI as they can.

Hi,

an other solution,

you can play, that The Dutch can produce with the half of its territory income (should be 18 [Holland + DEI]) in Holland.
So The Dutch can Produce with 9 IPC’s. So if I were Germany, I would attack Holland as early as possible.
The rest of Holland rules in 5.1 are ok.
In the rules, you can read, that Holland is not a Pro-Allied, it is an Allied, so the Dutch navy can be used together with e.g. ANZAC Navy, but not for attack, but for Protection.

Another possible solution could arise if the map is ever redrawn. Please note that I am not suggesting the map be redrawn just to solve this problem.

However if the map does get changed at any point I suggest splitting Reims into two separate territories.  The northern territory would border Holland and the southern territory would border West Germany and Bavaria.  Then you could increase the fortifications for the southern territory.  This would seem to be the most elegant solution.

Another idea is to just increase the fortifications in Reims to encourage Germany to go into Holland. As a counter, since not every game should have this, if France falls but Holland was never invaded, Holland becomes a reluctant German ally.

The logic behind this is that Belgium and Holland were too intimidated to enter the war on the Allies side and thus risk fighting the war on their soil.  How much more intimidated would they have been with no allies on the continent and the knowledge that  Britain could not protect them?

Under such a scenario I would see Germany collecting all of the income and resources for all of Belgium/Holland. This would be detrimental to Japan and could prove interesting.