Gsh34 (axis) vs. Axisplaya (allies) Alpha +3

Yugo twlo 2 inf

NCM

fig Yugo > Sita
fig z112 > Sita
1 aa gun Wgr > Fra (hmmmm, I’m going to have to get used to moving more AA guns around)
11 inf, 3 art, 1 aa Ger > Pol
1 inf Rom > Bulgaria for activation
2 inf Nor > Fin for activation
2 inf Hun > Pol
4 inf, 1 art Sgr > Hun
2 inf Den > TT z113 > z114 > Pol
tac z112 > Wgr
tac z111 > z112 and land on CV
sbr z111 > Wgr
1 fig z110 > z112 and land on CV
2 fig, 3 tac z110 > Wgr

Placement:
CV, DD, SS in z112

Collect Income (note: since the NOs have changed, I am not going to use any of the NO markers in the Alpha 2 chart.  I am simply going to write them down)
39 territory + 19 French plunder + 5 Swedish ore NO + 5 Russian trade NO = 68 ipc

gsh34_vs_axisplaya_1aGermany.AAM

I had forgotten about that part of the non-aggression pact…that we have to work it out!  Hmmmm…how about the Soviets pay Japan 3 ipc/turn to not attack them?  Is that too much to ask for??? :-D  Seriously though, I have been thinking about the pact since Alpha +3 came out and I did have few ideas about the pact.

1.) Any Japanese attack into a Soviet territory that boarders Mongolia activates them as Russian units. While it does split Mongolia off as an exception to the true neutrals, I’m ok with that. This leaves the three far east territories that Japan could take amphibiously with no repercussion, but then those units would be stranded there until picked up by boat or else they would trigger Mongolia if any other Soviet territory were attacked. In conjunction with this, if the Soviets attack first, Japan should be able to counter-attack without activating Mongolia.

2.) Come up some preset conditions that have to be met before the Soviets and Japanese could attack each other. Not that I am endorsing these particular ideas but it would be something along the lines of this:

“The Soviets can not attack Japan until they own an original German territory for a complete round of play (this means no trading of the territory with the Axis)”
“The Japanese can not attack into original Soviet territories until the Euro-Axis hold 2 out of the 3 Soviet VCs for a complete round of play”
“The Japanese can not attack into original Soviet territories until they have conquered all of China + Kwangtung”
“The Japanese can not attack into original Soviet territories until they have conquered 5 VC on the Pacific board”  (note: or some other similarly defined territory/VC requirement.)

Personally, my preference would be something along the lines of #2.  We have some rather restrictive conditions that have to be met on each board before the Soviets and Japan could attack each other.  Your thoughts?

@Krieghund:

@Cpt_Hellcat:

Question - would the A+2 non-aggr pact be within the rules of A+3, if the players agreed to it?

No.

@Krieghund:

@Cpt_Hellcat:

Could you give an example of something that would be legal then??

Or is it basically players promising not to attack each other?

Anything that doesn’t change a rule or create a new one is legal.  Examples would be restrictions on unit movements and positioning or attacks against certain territories.

I pulled the above quotes off of Larry’s website.  Krieghund shot down the idea of using the old the old Alpha +2 penalty.  My idea for the restrictions was to make them very, very restrictive so that the Pacific game played more like stand-alone Pacific and Europe would play more like stand-alone Europe.  Then, if the powers wanted to interact, it would be in the middle east, and not through the SFE.

I guess we agree then that we won’t use my first suggestion.  Are you open to my second one. The idea of something very restrictive to both powers?  This would, in essence, protect both of our back doors.  Or, do you have another idea beside the Alpha +2 rule you would like to try?  I am open to other suggestions.

@Axisplaya:

Well…after all, since i play allies, i’ll let you pick any of your proposition 2 restriction.  :-D
For the record, i believe such restrictions favor the allies.  :wink:

Ok, fair enough.  I propose these restrictions:

Japan:
Japan may not attack any original Soviet territory until it has controlled 5 VCs for one complete round on the Pacific board.  However, should any other Allied powers units be in an original Russian territory (even if they recapture it from the Euro-Axis), Japan may then enter Soviet territory with the normal Amur/Manchuria/Korea/Mongolia penalty still aplying. (My thought on this is that the US could land troops in the Soviet far east territories.  I did it in a game.  If that happens, I would like to be able to attack them.)  A DOW and subsequent combat may occur between the two powers in any other territory or sz on the map that does not start under Russian or Japanese control.

Russia:
Russia may not attack, occupy, or garrison any territory that Japan starts the game with unless it controls an original Euro-Axis territory for a compete round of play.  War between the two powers may be declared and occur at any other territory or sz on the map that does not start under Russian or Japanese control.

Hmmm, let me think about this overnight.  After typing all of that out I can see where this agreement would be to your benefit.  If I take all of China, you could still take that money away from me, but I would never take money away from you.  I could never SBR you.  I guess what I was aiming at was to seal China and Korea off from the Russians.  If we fought in the Middle East or India or something, I would be ok with it.

Like I said, let me think about this.  Maybe I should just go with the Alpha +3 rule.  My idea may too cute by 1/2. :-(

I’ve been think about this a bit more.  I will agree to a restrictive non-aggression pact that protects China + starting Japanese territories from Soviet units and protects original Soviet territories from the Japanese if you would be willing to accept the same pact in our next game with me playing the Allies and you the Axis.  Since you view this as a net benefit for the Soviets, I would add an item that if any other Allied units occupy an original Soviet territory (even if liberated or captured), then the Japanese are free to attack with the Mongolian rule still in place.
Does this this quid pro quo interest you at all?

Ok, the conditions for invalidating the non-aggression pact:

Russia:
Soviets must control an original Euro-Axis territory for one complete round of play.  Then, they may enter China or starting Japanese territories.

Japan:
Japanese must control 5 VC for a complete round of play.  Or, if any unit from an Allied power is in an original Soviet territory, the Japanese may attack original Soviet territories (note: Mongolian Alpha +3 rule still applies).

How does this sound?

Also, once one power meet the criteria to invalidate the pact and did attack, the restriction is removed from the other power.  So, if Russia owned Romania for a complete turn and then attacked into Korea, Japan could immediately turn around and do an SBR on Moscow even though they might not have 5 VC in the Pacific.  Make sense to you?

Middle East (and other Euro-Axis, Allied [outside of China], or neutral territories) would be the exception.  Neither of us start the war owning those, so we could theoretically DOW each other and battle it out in any of those but still be restricted from China/starting Japanese territories/original Russian territories.

Ok, so with the non-aggression pact in place, I will hopefully get to my Japanese turn tonight.  If I don’t, I will most likely be taking my turn Monday or later.  I can’t do it tomorrow due to other commitments.

@Axisplaya:

Ok. Let’s do that.

So no no attack between Russia and Japan unless one of the restrictive condition is met by a power AND this power attacks the other.
Exemple, Russia manages to get Romania for 1 turn, but don’t attack the Japs » the non agression pact is still valid.

That’s still very good for allies, but at least, we’ll both get to play Allies with these rules.

Agreed.  Even if one of the powers can invalidate the pact, it remains in effect until it chooses to attack (if ever).

@Axisplaya:

No problem.

I thought : we should at least let Japan and Russia fight each other from the chinese border exepted Man.

So, the russian far east territories are protected for a long while (unless one of the restriction is met of course), and once Japan has cleaned China, he at least get the chance to fight Russia somewhere.

What do you think ?

So you want the Russians and Japanese to be able to attack each other through Kansu, Tsinghai, Siking, Novisibirsk, and Kazakhstan?  To be honest, I don’t like that.  I want to eliminate the possibility of Japan just giving up on the Pacific board and trying to drive through China to crush Russia or “steal” the eighth VC needed for victory on the Europe board.  I don’t want Japan to be able to attack the Soviet home territories until they have gone a long way towards winning on their board.  Think of it as the Japanese having to take care of business in their half of the world before opening another front.  Same for Russia, I don’t want them mucking up Japan until they have pushed back the Germans on their own and are in control.

To reiterate, these are the conditions I propose that we follow for our two games:

Russia:
Soviets must control an original Euro-Axis territory for one complete round of play.  Until then, they may not enter China or starting Japanese territories.

Japan:
Japanese must control 5 VC for a complete round of play before attacking or entering an original Soviet territory.  Or, if any unit from an Allied power is in an original Soviet territory, the Japanese may attack original Soviet territories (note: Mongolian Alpha +3 rule still applies).

Do you understand why I want to try it this way?  I just don’t like the idea of Japan throwing their half of the board away in an attempt to “crush” Russia.  Something about that irritates me.

Euro-Axis, Allied [excluding China], or neutral territories would be the exception.  Neither of us start the war owning those, so we could theoretically DOW each other and battle it out in any of those but still be restricted from China/starting Japanese territories/original Russian territories.

I want either power to be well on the way to victory in their own respective spheres of influence before opening up another front in the war.  This hinders/helps both in the fact that neither will have to garrison their boarders wondering what the other will do.  They can concentrate on their main opponents as needed.  Anyways, it is a game I say we try something different for change!

These would be the non-aggression pact rules for our two games.  What do you say partner? :-D

Alright then, the non-aggression pact is settled.  I will take my turn at a latter date….most likely Monday will be the earliest I’ll get to it, but don’t be surprised if it is latter than that.

Well, it turned out I can take my turn tonight.

Japan, round 1

Purchase: 26 ipc to spend
4 SS (24)
save 2
total = 26

DOW
1.) Green Bay Packer fans….man I don’t like them
2.) UK, ANZAC, France, US

Well, this will be interesting.  It is my first time attempting a J1 DOW.  I’ll have to see how this goes……

Combat:

to z37 (1 BB)
CA z20
fig For (1 move remain)
2 sbr Jap (2 move remain)

to FIC (walk in)
1 inf Sia

to Bor (walk in)
1 inf Ksi > TT z 20 > z43

to z35 (1 DD, 1 SS, 1 possible fig scramble?)
BB, DD, SS z19
1 fig, 1 tac z6 (0 move remain)

Note: 1 CV from z6 will have to go to z35 in NCM to pick up the planes in the Philippines.

See attached file.

SS z6

to Phil (2 inf, 1 fig if not scrambled)
1 inf, 1 tank Jap > TT z6 > z33
1 inf, 1 art Man > TT z19 > z33
1 fig, 1 tac z 33 (1 move remain)

to Yun (4 inf)
3 inf, 1 art Kwa
fig, tac Ksu (1 move remain)

to Cha (walk in)
1 inf Jeh

to Hon (2 inf)
1 inf, 1 art Ksi
1 fig, 1 tac Jap (1 move remain)
fig Oki (1 move remain)

to Hun
1 inf Ksi
2 fig, 2 tac Man (1 move remain)

to Anh (walk in)
1 inf Sha

gsh34_vs_axisplaya_1cJapan_combat_movement.AAM