@rock`n:
first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.
Because otherwise the west coast lies open to invasion forces from Italy/Germany.
The US better not continue to dump resources into Pacific if there’s no block between Germany and mainland.And well -
@rock`n:
second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.
that is what i got, no offense!
rock`n roll
I’ve not really seen anything to suggest it is a loosing strategy to take England, other than it being repeated numerous times.
Taking an enemy out of the game can never be a loosing strategy.
Failing to take England would count as a loosing strategy ;)
back again :)
thanx for replying, xandax. i hope, you don´t get annoyed by me insisting in details etc. ;) i like this discussion since it gave me some valid points worth trying something different sake of a fun game. thanx for that.
but here we go:
@rock`n:
first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.
Because otherwise the west coast lies open to invasion forces from Italy/Germany.
The US better not continue to dump resources into Pacific if there’s no block between Germany and mainland.
hmmm…maybe i should clarify this.
it is huge difference between going 100% pacific, mostly pacific, 50/50, mostly europe and 100% europe. a large scale the US can cover. and well, most likely a sealion-maneuver will occure on G3, so the US can prepare properly. because the “cards are shown” by the germans.
well, i believe, that germany looses too much in troops etc. that the US won´t need so much to invest to get all done, what has to be done: taking back london and sinking a small german navy
what it is then exactly depends on the buys of the axis player(s).
@rock`n:
second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.
that is what i got, no offense!
rock`n roll
I’ve not really seen anything to suggest it is a loosing strategy to take England, other than it being repeated numerous times.
Taking an enemy out of the game can never be a loosing strategy.
hmm, then you have overlooked my two arguments:
a) ECONOMY: economicly spoken, sealion is a desaster. you invest too much in somewhat you loose soon after having taken. any IPCs taken from the UK-europe is not enough to compensate the loss of valuable troops, planes and your navy. you take london with a huge effort just to loose it for - in comparison to the effort done - mostly no cost to the US and the other allies.
b) TIME: you waste time in achieving which at last you have to achieve anyway. taking all three russian cities and cairo to win. you give as a present to russia 111 IPCs to 148 IPCs to build up a decent defensive force which is able to contain germany. not to win, but to contain!
c) STRATEGY: it is already hard to win on the europe-stand-alone-board. in global it is even harder. so the chances to win via sealion TEND to zero. i know there is still a little possibility to win, but only due to lucky dices, which - imho - represents NO winning strategy. too many battles with an 50/50 outcome, no sure “things” etc. so it is likely that you loose more than you win with it. (just like “special forces” commented it).
rock`n roll.
P.S.: but it is fun to take london. :D so i do this, but if i am determined to win, i leave it aside.
P.P.S.: did you study my barbarossa-scheme? what do think about it?
1.) you really want to invade the arctic ocean? or did you mean atlantic ocean? i hope so ;) if yes, how? subs?
***you need trns to invade in A&A, not subs. Arctic ocean is great for Germany to operate in, only Russia can fight there with precious aircraft…
2.) if a russian player is this stupid then he has to loose. as russia noone can withstand against the axis in the balcans. i´d maybe attack romania or karelia, but nothing more, because of getting defeated so easily by a newly built german force.
***Yeah, like I said, it was a mistake to move heavy into Yugo as Russia. Although he did get some benefit from it because Italy all of a sudden could not ship units to Africa, they were all needed to defend NItaly.
3.) so you build mostly infantry. ok. this means, if built in G5, as you mentioned it, G6 in leningrad, at earliest in moscow at G9, then. right? a landing in leningrad in G5 can be delayed by the russian BB. so you´ll be in leningrad on G6, not earlier. etc. but i agree with you, IF russia leaves a big stack in leningrad AND gets defeated, then the count is on.
***well I said I like to build arty guns, more arty than inf in fact. That way when I approach and capture Russian ics I can build inf from them to go with my arty stack. Also troops from London reinforce Norway G4. G5 they take Finland back, and you counter invade Kar/Archangel/Lenningrad from Arctic ocean…
First I want to say that in all the games I’ve played with a successful sealion, the US has never recaptured London. I’m not saying its impossible, I am sure that if US went 100% atlantic they might be able to get into London, but it really is easy for Germany to hold it.
I’ll give you a run down of my moves, starting from the invasion. G3 invasion of England. G4 fleet brings some troops back to Europe to deal with Russian incursion, sink Russian bb if possible but it probably now moves out to block Germ fleet. G5, sink russian bb, invade via Arctic ocean because Russia cannot block there and it is only 3 spaces from WGerm. Also thanks to SeaLion I have 12-13 trns, so I can even send a few off to die if it means I get some mobility out of them. Also G5 I shoulder up to Romania and vacate Yugo, hoping to draw russians into the Balkans where they do not get 3 extra ipcs for capturing a territory. G6 fleet returns to Atlantic. Usually my CV and a dd plus any remaining subs are on station trying to put pressure on Gib. With the addition of my CA and BB now I have a real force. I should mention that I like to leave my lvl bmbs and 1 ftr 1 tac on London to support the fleet. G7 is an invasion of Gibraltar and meshing of the German and Italian fleets into a large defensive fleet in Gibraltarsz.
All this is predicated on a US strat that is not 100% Atlantic. If it is 50% or less then the axis have the war in hand and do not have to worry about the US until US 8, and by then the Axis have a stranglehold on the EUSsz. Now of course there are going to be counters, but the US would have to know in advance that I plan on holding the Atlantic on lockdown and slowly grinding down Russia.
back again. :D
Arctic ocean is great for Germany to operate in, only Russia can fight there with precious aircraft…
what kind of operation do you suggest?
***well I said I like to build arty guns, more arty than inf in fact. That way when I approach and capture Russian ics I can build inf from them to go with my arty stack. Also troops from London reinforce Norway G4. G5 they take Finland back, and you counter invade Kar/Archangel/Lenningrad from Arctic ocean….
but it is a real slow approach into russia! it takes too much time, doesn´t it? so you need to be real sure about not being harrassad on the other side of the continent, which is quite possible on round 5. what do you think?
First I want to say that in all the games I’ve played with a successful sealion, the US has never recaptured London. I’m not saying its impossible, I am sure that if US went 100% atlantic they might be able to get into London, but it really is easy for Germany to hold it.
please explain to me, how you would do this. you can build only 3 troops per round, the navy is not really strong etc. i doubt this statement england being easy to defend…
I’ll give you a run down of my moves, starting from the invasion. G3 invasion of England. G4 fleet brings some troops back to Europe to deal with Russian incursion, sink Russian bb if possible but it probably now moves out to block Germ fleet. G5, sink russian bb, invade via Arctic ocean because Russia cannot block there and it is only 3 spaces from WGerm. Also thanks to SeaLion I have 12-13 trns, so I can even send a few off to die if it means I get some mobility out of them. Also G5 I shoulder up to Romania and vacate Yugo, hoping to draw russians into the Balkans where they do not get 3 extra ipcs for capturing a territory. G6 fleet returns to Atlantic. Usually my CV and a dd plus any remaining subs are on station trying to put pressure on Gib.
what do you mean by “shouldering up” romania? i do not get it. and where does the fleet move? to gibraltar or to the seazones around england?
With the addition of my CA and BB now I have a real force. I should mention that I like to leave my lvl bmbs and 1 ftr 1 tac on London to support the fleet. G7 is an invasion of Gibraltar and meshing of the German and Italian fleets into a large defensive fleet in Gibraltarsz.
this is too obvious, no? by US6 there should already be a considerable force to take down this small german fleet. if not, then a block is easy to install, so i think, that a G7-capture of gibraltar is nothing more than a nice idea…
All this is predicated on a US strat that is not 100% Atlantic. If it is 50% or less then the axis have the war in hand and do not have to worry about the US until US 8, and by then the Axis have a stranglehold on the EUSsz. Now of course there are going to be counters, but the US would have to know in advance that I plan on holding the Atlantic on lockdown and slowly grinding down Russia.
the hold of the atlantic is your only chance to win since your strategy needs a lot of time! 5 turns only to touch russian borders!
but what do you mean by " a US strat not 100% atlantic"? (finally, it is never 100%, isn´t it? ;) )
but it depends on what turn the US will be thrown into the war. maybe round three. or other way round: 6 rounds time to take london and denying an axis victory by liberating cairo or rome. it depends on the outcome of the german approach into russia.
i think, it is an interesting idea you have, but it fails to put a real pressure on the allied side, because russia can fortify its holdings for four turns (148 IPCs!!! plus troops worth 185 IPCs from the beginning) before it get scratched a bit on the surface and keeping this way germany contained. a decent counter-attack there can crush any advance then. depends on your moves where from it would happen, from belarus i guess, because you go mostly via northern routes.
even if you get 64 IPCs (London, scotland, normandy, france, finland, bulgaria, yugoslavia inluded) before taking over any russian territory it won´t help. conquering london is not done without considerable losses of planes etc. you need two turns to muster land-troops getting on an equal level with russia before being able to outproduce them, which means turn 6 at earliest. meanwhile russia can gain up to 42 IPCs, and if being able to conquer finland and romania even more: 50!
Russia also has a good chance to harass you in norway, not winning, but buying time with this, forcing germany to split forces, which results in more time being able to defend the capital and helping the US to free London. to hold london - if it is your idea to do so - germany has to split its income. another help for russia and the allies in whole.
til round 3 or 4 the US can build up - slowlier or faster - a better fleet than germany would be able to destroy. so retaking london is only a matter of time, turning a big german effort - sealion - into dust.
but we would have to try it out, wouldn´t we? ;)
greetings
rock`n roll
I’ll try and answer some of these questions, but some of them are answered in the previous post.
I run in the Arctic fleet units that I need to reach Novogrod and take it. So it has been all my trns before plus a defending CV, however it has also been 2 trns I used to capture Novgorod just to be a pain. The arctic ocean is arguably the best way to invade Russia, because it is on an extreme flank and you might be able to bypass the Russian army, or at least force it back.
Yes, my offensive against Russia is designed to wear down Russia and /then/ take them out. Its not a fast campaign. Once you reach the environs of Moscow you have to tread very carefully and wait for your reinforcements or an Italian can opener to advance. The good news about this strategy is that Russia can be crippled once you reach this line.
I have no problem holding London, remember I usually will only hit london if I could land in Scotland G2 with 5 inf aa gun. This means I can hold London with a purchase of 2-3 inf a round plus an arm or dd, plus my large airforce and that sweet aa gun. However my main defense of the island comes from the fleet I leave in sz 109. Usually my cv and 1-2 trns plus a newly purchased dd perhaps. The only warships needed to clear the baltic and defend those trns are 1 CA 1 dd 1 bb, provided Russia hasn’t been adding to their air force. London is usually held with 4 inf 2 arm aa gun plus aircraft.
‘shouldering up to Romania’ means I try and force Russia into moving into Yugo heavy over Hungary, best way to do this is to move a few inf and arty into SGerm and withdraw from balkans. Once the baltic is cleared and Lenningrad in German hands the German fleet leaves(some trns might hang around) for the sea south of England.
Well, by G7 the Italians should already have Gibraltar. I like to take it after clearing the med. This will let you stage german aircraft in Gib too. Also these moves are describing my Germ strat when US goes all pacific, but even a few ships should be no problem for the axis, but once US spends 1-2 rounds of full production on the atlantic, things might get dicey.
I should mention one other aspect of this strategy, After the fall of Egypt Italy moves on the middle east, forcing some response from the Russians and India and draining troops from the main front against Germ.
Well, by G7 the Italians should already have Gibraltar. I like to take it after clearing the med. This will let you stage german aircraft in Gib too. Also these moves are describing my Germ strat when US goes all pacific, but even a few ships should be no problem for the axis, but once US spends 1-2 rounds of full production on the atlantic, things might get dicey.
I should mention one other aspect of this strategy, After the fall of Egypt Italy moves on the middle east, forcing some response from the Russians and India and draining troops from the main front against Germ.
I think many people see the idea of a 100% Pacific strat way too literal.
Let’s be serious, only an OCD USA player would allow all this and keep going Pacific without any thinking. If they play like that i suggest Axis takes Canada as well, since it’s free.
In fact, in many of the recent strategy ideas i see around here (not only this thread) seriously ignore/forget any enemy reactions, resistance or counter moves.
well thats sorta the point of the European axis advance, to move as close to the US as possible to stymie their produciton. Thats why I like to take Gibraltar early as Italy. Also stage German aircraft from there after Sealion.
The axis have to watch the US coast, but at the same time not goad them into production there. Thats why I don’t hit Canada. Thats just asking for US retribution and the capture of those IPCS. If I was going to exploit the Atlantic more it would be a move on Brazil and SAfrica.
Well, i was being sarcastic about taking Canada ;)
Of course, as Axis there wouldn’t be anything wrong in going after Gibraltar, or controlling the Atlantic, or even snatching brazil.
But as a US player allowing all this, that would be really really bad play.
From Gib. there are a bunch of places to hit the U.S. (Axis controlled). I also like Germ. to take S. France it can add stability to the Med, and with Gib. and London and a second Carrier at the S. FR minor IC , stage for the East coast
My vote is 50/50 some times sealion works and some times it doesnt
A good Barbarossa along with the elimination of the Royal Navy done early (G2) should get er done baring horrible dice
Gentlemen: Very interesting discussion about sealion. Assume G1 builds 4 tr and then attacks UK on G2 with navy. 1st must win naval battle to get there before can use planes against UK proper. If successful, it is a great move. However, history teaches that had Germany used its Luftwaffe against the Mediterrean and taken out Malta it would have conquered Egypt and most of the Pro Axis Near East, especially Iraq giving it all the oil it needed to advance into the USSR and/or threaten India too.
Query: Why not fortify Denmark with infantry to prevent sea invasion and build 9-10 tanks on G2 and 6 again on G-3 for an invasion of Russia? Can alway keep UK at Bay in the North Sea until USA uses overwhelming force?
As to the Pacific. Would you attack Russia from the east on J1-and J2?
til round 3 you don´t need to fortify denmark, since britain is the only party on the european side that would invade germany by sea. the us is still far away…
and to build only tanks as germany would do for the first attacks, but later on you will miss your cannon-fodder: infantry or mech. so i´d suggest you buy first artillery, mechs. later some tanks, you already have 8! you just need to mass them up in one country, i.e. east poland…
and yes. i´d attack russia as japan.
@special:
Well, i was being sarcastic about taking Canada ;)
Of course, as Axis there wouldn’t be anything wrong in going after Gibraltar, or controlling the Atlantic, or even snatching brazil.
But as a US player allowing all this, that would be really really bad play.
i agree with that.
mostly, because it is not this difficult to keep the axis out of gibraltar.
