Need help forming strategy: Operation Penta-"gone". When US builds KIF?

Hello,

If you are reading this you are intrigued by the title above. I have posted an idea for a Kill America First approach if the allies do KJF [Kill Japan First]. Now I am formulating a response to a Kill Europe First approach with an axis Kill America First strategy called 'Operation Penta-“gone” '…

Its a “one” time strategy that players learn to avoid in the future. It requires the allies to take a certain “bait” turn 1, “false” force deployments, simulated invasion stagings, and misdirection to successfully work. I’m currently waiting on a ruling regarding what territories C.US borders. I will not be posting this idea until it is “tested”.

I am seeking your post regarding your typical navy, air and land builds for the US when you are focused on Europe First. I am basing my first 5 planned axis turns on a suspected US force of: 12-14 land units, 3-4 carriers, 12 air units, 3-8 subs/DDs, 6-7 transports, the West Coast navy sailing to the East coast and an America that has spent 156 IPCs by the beginning of Round 4 {No axis DOW against US or USSR until Round4}.

Specifically, please post:    [G4: denotes German turn 4; sz 101 denotes US coastline]

1: How many Land units you have on E. US turn G4?
……{note: not US4, since they go after all axis players turn 4}

2: How many navy units you have in 101 turn G4?

3: How many air units you have and are they on E. US or SZ101 on G4?

and finally,

4: Do you stay in sea zone 101 until turn 4 if neutral or where do you deploy when facing 2 German carriers, 9 transports and a Sea Lion threat on G4?

Thank you for your time, your responses will help me predict US builds in a “typical” response to a large sea lion and a Europe first allied approach. If this plan has Merit, I will provide the Production Schedules, Move Orders, and anticipated allied responses.

Also, would you trade Germany for the US in a Global game? [if it came down to it]

@MarkVIIIMarc:

What you cooking up?  Taking that Canadian naval base or factory with German Transports would be annoying……

Well, Its just a concept at this point, not sure it will work. Waiting on a ruling as to what zones connect to C. US. [Informed by Krieghund that it touches Ontario and “maybe” Alberta which will be ruled on later.]

Since you asked, here is the basic “scheme”: Bait UK India into making a turn 1 DOW against Japan. Do this by DOW against USSR if not already, land a few units north by Korea, place a “tempting” bait within reach of UK, say 1 Transport a carrier without planes or a DD in sz 36[FIC] or 46[Java]. Maybe place too many/few land units in Yunnan, not sure what would work. Would likely keep air by Russia so India would feel “safe” attacking. It all hinges on the DOW by India, which opens up a turn 2 invasion by Japan of British Columbia. While Neutral, the US cannot move into or attack you as you stage your air units and transported men there on turn 3. Then:

“This is regarding a ridiculous strategy response to a Kill Europe First allied approach that uses 3 turns of US/USSR neutral, a “fake” sea lion threat, a “baited” UK India - [declaration of war on Japan] turn 1 and an Italian expeditionary force to “temporarily” seize a Washington cleared of land units by Japanese air units on turn 4 before turning it over to the Germans on turn 5 when they happily smash any liberators from their forward post in Quebec/New Brunswick.” - J. Aleman 10/6/10

Again, this is only a concept,[[i]I know, I know, an experienced player would never fall for it, or so I will be told this often] but how many Indian players see a risk of losing Washington by attacking Japan? Anyway, if I can devise a lure sufficient for this plan to proceed here are the goals: [[i]You did ask]

Turn 1: G1 build CV, 2 Transports proceed with a sea lion threat. Includes grabbing France and clearing navy, land air at an airbase to position for clearing the Med G2. Keep USSR/US neutral for 3 turns. I1 attack French fleet in 93 with DD,CA and Transport, build transport in sz 95[W.coast of Italy-hostile zone maybe, will be cleared G2]. IF UK CV planes in 93: build transport in 95, move fleet to Gibraltar and take.[assumes UK sank Italians in 95] then France chooses to sink unescorted Tranny or equal fight at east coast gibraltar sz92. J1 build air base Korea[deception, permits air force to land there and still make British Columbia but appears to be needed to return to South Asia] and 1 transport, move fleet to bombard USSR if on the coast or sz19 to “land” support in Manchuria, keep fleet away from India to give a sense of security to India and appear out of position or inexperienced.

Turn2: G2 build CV and 6 Transports _Make sure you left the DD tran in 106 alive so UK will bring Quebec units to London to “foil” sea lion on UK1. This build marks a “commitment” for sea lion. USSR will build heavy offense likely. Clear Med sz 93 of French if UKCV there or 95, or 92[land air in Gibraltar depends on what French did]. Send 2 transports[2 armor,inf] to Iceland, 1 transport[2 inf] to Scotland to prevent air from reaching Iceland sea zone. Keep CVs and navy[BB,CA] in 112. With 18 units and air that has cleared sea of UK ships staged for a Sea lion, I doubt UK will pull air from London to save Quebec or build there as J2 has not tipped hand about US first. I2: build transport if safe from S African DD, move fleet to sz 91 [W. Coast Gibraltar]. J2: Build 3 transports, move fleet to sz 6[Japan] move land to Korea and air to Korea air base, take British Columbia with 2 land units.

Turn 3: G2: build heavy land units to try and hold Germany. Take 6 transports 12 land units[6 armor] and fleet, plus air to Gibraltar. Capture Quebec with 4 land units[likely 1 inf there] worst case: take new brunswick. I2: stage 1-2 transports and air at Gibraltar. send 1 transport 2 land{Washington capture force} to New brunswick or Quebec J3: build max transports land entire air force [OOB setup=28] on B. Columbia along with 3-5 transports worth of men, to be followed up with J4 land unit landing… USA now clearly sees they are the target and have US3 to prepare in earnest.

Turn 4: G4: build heavy land units for defense. Take Ontario. Land all transports in Quebec build 3 units there if held, land air there as well. J4: Attack E. US with air force to clear zone so that Italy can capture for 1 turn. Take W. US if able[should have 8-12 land units in BColumbia I think, depends on where US placed their US3 production and air. I4: Walk into unoccupied [b]Washington, seize 82 IPCs. Land other transports in Quebec.

Turn 5: G5: build defense of Berlin, if able build in quebec. Retake Washington from US counterattack. J5: Reclear E. Washington if able and German did not take so that Italy can keep it, or use surviving air? if any to take W. US in force with last staged units dropped in BC turn 4 before the US clears the sea of German/Italian trannies and maybe Japanese Fleet in BC waters.

Now this is just what I have in my head, I did not prepare counters to it, it can easily be countered if your true destination is surmised. Anyway, this misdirection and lofty plan all hinge on finding a good enough “bait” to get an India or Anzac turn 1 DOW against Japan. Honestly, how many people fear DOW on Japan results in E.US falling?

The true beauty of this is that while Neutral, you can move through “friendly” US navies while fighting Canada. When US is finally able to engage you at sea, you no longer need your “disposable” fleets in the Atlantic…obviously retreat if able, leave a CA or BB or CV as a blocker. If the air base in Korea is likely to “tip” off the allies, build it turn 2 or not at all, you can after-all just land all air in Japan turn 2, I simply did not want to build 3 trannies J1 as that might scare India from DOW. If you appear to be inexperienced and unable to contest their taking of Islands they may fall for it.

I predict the UK india max production cap to be= 29IPCs[Iwo, Okinawa, Java, Sumatra, Celebes] and Anzac should cap at 18 IPCs. Japan with the US and a few coastal zones should be 36+ and still have a navy capable of challenging India/Anzac.

If Germany is to fall, it may be ok to let Italy Keep Washington, giving Italy 10 NOs + 20 Washington, 3 S. France, 12 C.US, 10 starting= 55 IPCs.

If Germany survives with +20 for E.US and likley +12 C.US over time, I see USSR falling back.

Does this seem plausible? [ok, open fire, shoot this down at your leisure :) ]
Remember I did not set this up and test it yet, you did ask :)
Note there may be mistakes or improper positions above, this is a quick response to MarkVIIIMarc’s question. Edits will follow._

The Iceland troops [G2] take Quebec/Newbrunswick [G3]. And while at war with UK you can take Canada, and IF Japan at war with UK/Anzac only, Canada should be legal.

@calvinhobbesliker:

BTW, I generally don’t declare war on Japan turn 1. I wait until turn 2 at least.

What would it take for you to declare war turn 1? naked Transports, carriers, BBs? all asia land units exposed?

Is it possible to get you to declare war turn 1 with India or Anzac, and would you honestly fear that this would cost you E. US prior to this thread?

@special:

By the way, doesn’t Japan taking Britisch Columbia bring USA in the war in turn2?

Not if India declared war against Japan, I believe.

I had 12 more hours to think about this in detail.

There are 2 “work arounds” to India not declaring war turn 1. The first one has a better chance of success in my opinion. They are:

Option 2: Some have posted that a turn 2 India DOW against Japan is common. Rather then “bait” them into attacking turn 1, just focus on building transports, take Soviet Far East J1. Fly air force there J2 when you place an air base. Then land air force in German occupied “Alberta” on J3. Then clear Washington for Italy with air force on J4.
I believe a DOW by India turn 2 is required. Otherwise Japan would be flying over Neutral British Columbia which I believe is against the rules. J3 support the axis efforts by landing 7-8 loaded transports from the “russian” front to British Columbia turn 3, so that if they defend Washington, you take San Francisco.
How does Germany get to Alberta? G2: Iceland and Scotland. G3: sz 123->122->121 touches Greenland, Alberta, and Quebec. Take Alberta and Quebec with 2 transports.
After turn 3: Axis should have Quebec: 2German,4 Italian land;2 Italian air. British Columbia 16 Japanese land. Alberta: German armor, inf, 28 Japanese air. Ontario: 1 German infantry.
Turn 4: Japan attack either W coast or east coast by air and land[west coast]. 16 German land units, land in Quebec plus they build 3. Japan lands a second wave of infantry in British Columbia. If Washington is empty, Italy sends 1 infantry in to claim it. Otherwise Germans probably take C. US from Quebec -> Ontairo -> C. US using armor. Land surviving Japanese air in Quebec if needed. You also have the option of hitting the US fleet if in range of Japan and either of the above are not safe. Note: if Washington is secure on J4, capture W. US and land 28 air on Quebec, other axis stack there should give you 3 air forces, 27 land, 36-38 air. Should be safe from E. US forces of predicted: 25-30land, 12 air.

Option 3: Assumes no DOW by allies. No air base Soviet Far east, as that combined with German Alberta “tips off” the US. Instead, conduct more “normal” operations. Wait for German to take British Columbia on turn 4. Then fly Japanese air force and make 12 transport landing on German held British Columbia. Axis forces move from Quebec to Ontario. Capture C. US if possible with German armor and air strike to clear and Italian armor and air to capture. Instead of stacking on B.Columbia, you can stage forces for a “Raid” on W. US should be possible maybe with 9 Japanese Transports, 6 carrier planes, and 4 bombers flying from Japan to land in B.Columbia if staged while Neutral to US. Note: W. US sea can be cleared by Japanese navy and 6 planes to land on carriers as carrier planes hitting W. US land in B. Columbia. A turn 5 battle with the US seems like it will take rounds to win. Best case, you have US bottled to E. US and collecting 82 - 30 [N/O] - 12 [W.US/Alaska-German] say 40 - 12 [C. US if axis take in force and Jap air lands there to hold] = 28 IPCs. Not sure if US falls, but fights elsewhere will be drawing on axis resources.

Conclusion Option 2: is likely possible since others claim India turn2 DoW is likely and you see the US falling for good by round 5 if E.US is taken Round 4. Otherwise US will be contained in Option2:

Option 3 is less Idea and too hard to Predict without a play test.

Option 3 is just stated as the allies can do nothing to prevent the moves, however if US does a UK and builds all land the first 3 turns, US first is not an option. I believe they can produce 52 infantry in 3 turns, add this to I think 10 starting land units and is not an option.

Option 2 or 1 give you the best chance of knocking out the US if you “surprise” them, meaning they build navy and land for a German first approach. Both require India to declare war either turn 1 or 2.

Anyway, these are “concepts” right now, and have not been tested. Too many options to consider in my head without a board to verify.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Where do the Italians come from, I ask?

2 transports, 1 made turn 1, 1 survives uk1. air fly to iceland I2,then Canada.

I1: Gibraltar attack with surviving navy. France vs Italian navy = Italian lives with 1 tran. Ideally Uk is in 95, Italy hit 93 with air and DD and/or CA. G2 clears UK in 95 or 93.

I2: sz91 - may require Germans here, then i would redo fleet build[2 less trn for a cv]

I3: Quebec

turn 2, unlikely u see america first, unlikely UK flys air to hit 91 as air then leaves uk vulnerable to sea lion and has to land in S.america/n.africa. Most people will not trade London for this fleet, however this is the fleet that captures E.US and if you are aware of the plan, you might pull the trigger. Nobody unaware of this plan will see the threat of 1 or 2 Italian transports, as UK gets to produce before the Italians can hit them and the US feels safe behind a large Europe based navy from an Italian transport(s) fleet and maybe a CA.

I4: E.Us

The best way to keep the Italian transport(s) alive is:

I1: build 1 transport in enemy occupied sz 95. Attack 93 with 2 fighters and a DD, send Ca to 98 to block DD if in 81. Otherwise sz 97 transport and CA to 92 to capture Gibraltar. This assumes: the pressure on London keeps the UK airforce and land units that can get there in London, meaning the UK attack on 95 requires a CA, CV, DD, and alexandra FTR. That prevents the CV from moving to 93, otherwise you may survive with the BB and Transport. Worst case scenario move whole 97 fleet to 92 French attack should be mutual annihilation with the transport living. Germany clears the UK fleet in 95 on there next turn.

I2: move to 91 to join the German fleet.

I play tested 10 rounds of this US first approach. I had US respond with medium infantry builds on US2. in order to protect the west coast when I saw the airbase and airforce stack in soviet far east. I had UK India attack Yunnan on turn 2. This permitted the Japanese air force to fly over Brittish Columbia and land on German occupied Alberta.

In this playtest America had several choices: I choose to back away from W. coast, stack in Central, land fleet airforce in E. US and built all land. In this response, the 1 US infantry in the west coast fell to Germany G4, when it attacked with a Gibraltar bomber and Alberta armor. [bomber path:91,90,89,101,c.us,w.us,b.columbia]. Japan then hit the US fleet, 3 carriers, BB, 2 CA [uk and us], 3 DD, 6 trans. Japan cleared it in one combat round losing  3-4 bombers. I had america fall for this, as it was safe from the air force in Alberta since they were 3 spaces away. Also the German navy was no threat to this large of a surface fleet. However the German air base build turn 4, gave the Japanese the 5 movement need to clear it. This later lead to sub blockades that kept america out. However the constant German infantry builds in W.US kept Russia parked in Slovakia with a Major factory all game . The break point was the allies out producing Japan in the pacific. UK eventually got a fleet in London and I had all of africa with the german transport fleet that never went to Quebec but instead took africa, since the jap air force was protecting W. US instead of Quebec.

I saw the US had the potential to make several mistakes on US4 with this ploy.

They could have tried to hold W. US. from the 18 units landed in B.Columbia J3 and the J. air force in Alberta. If they had staged the US air force in W. US to hold it, I would have cleared E. US with the Jap air and taken with Italy. Germany would have forgone Africa and landed in Quebec for a follow up wave. and that would have given them the men to push Russia back. This would have left the US fleet in tack.

Regardless there are many options. If the US did not respond on turn 2, but waited til turn 3. [I.e. they did not see the US first approach until the Germans took Alberta G3. The Jap air force in Soviet far east, can only hit the US west coast sea zone and is no direct threat to US land. It may appear to be needed against the Russia stack and threat to prevent a W.coast navy build.] then the US would be doomed.

Too many options to look at, I need to deploy the Jap fleet south early to keep the UK India from using a navy option. I am on vacation this coming week and will play a Global vs. a good friend. If he permits me to play the axis I will deploy the Prototype plan.