Italy a bad design

Okay I guess the axis does have to take Moscow then.  I didn’t count the cities because the game board is over my friends house.

Wow, 13 pages of stuff in 24 hours.

First off I would like to apologize to Plumsmugler.

I didn’t mean to go off on you, I hate when broken claims are made without much proof so early in the game’s release.

I am sorry. :-(

Next this is @ TexCapPrezJimmy-

Thank you for Reply #103. Your one post you summed up about 100 posts what you and Blitz where saying.

I see your point Blitz, of the setup things that need to be closely looked at.

Once ABattleMap is out for AAG40(Go Stoney!!!), people will build off others strats.

@jeffdestroyer:

if the USA goes all Europe, then Japan will take Honolulu and the rest of the Pacific and likely Cairo.

Germans DO NOT need Moscow in order for the Axis to achieve 14 VC.

Exactly - Axis victory is not a race to Moscow…need Victory Cities…could be from west US…or UK…or some other victory city…say, on the moon…

Anybody notice how the Axis get extra moolah for taking some of the harder to get VC’s…
Helps balance the IPC’s…

I simply can not move on…I am so bitter about losing my puny Italian fleet in the first turn…I mean my UK fleet…I mean the french army…I mean…aww, nevermind…I will just see what happens in the SECOND turn of the game after I am done bitching about the first turn!  Anybody need a tissue to dry up all there tears?  How about a good anti-depressant to help put your life in a better perspective.  It is a frigging game…

Ok, played through turn 1 last night. On G1 I sent 2 subs against the UK Carrier group, ended up losing both subs while only damaging the CV (the Tac landed in Gibralter).  On UK1 a combined fleet of 2 DDs, the Egyptian Fighter, the Tac and the damaged CV recreated Taranto taking out the SZ 95 fleet while losing a DD.  Italy struck back on her turn with her remaining air and sea units taking out the UK fleet losing a fighter.  The French fleet then wiped out the remaining Italians (damn bad rolling on Italy’s part).

At this point I think Italy just has to accept her fleet getting destroyed, and rely on either rebuilding (I’d go all subs first to make the Med dangerous for the Allies) or concentrating on air power to control the Med.  At the end of turn 1, Italy had S. France, Bulgaria, Taken back 1 French African Territory (I forget the name), Sudan and 1 other UK east Africa Territory and overrun Alexandria.  They are in decent shape in Africa and can likely take Egypt on I2.  The Allies control the Med right now, but have no way of reinforcing the land battle in Africa.  An Italian fleet may need to wait, or be all subs till the Med is cleared out with German help.

Italy is MEANT to be a challenge, even for the veteran A&A player…. I think its a good challenge too.

@ll:

Ok, played through turn 1 last night. On G1 I sent 2 subs against the UK Carrier group, ended up losing both subs while only damaging the CV (the Tac landed in Gibralter).  On UK1 a combined fleet of 2 DDs, the Egyptian Fighter, the Tac and the damaged CV recreated Taranto taking out the SZ 95 fleet while losing a DD.  Italy struck back on her turn with her remaining air and sea units taking out the UK fleet losing a fighter.  The French fleet then wiped out the remaining Italians (damn bad rolling on Italy’s part).

At this point I think Italy just has to accept her fleet getting destroyed, and rely on either rebuilding (I’d go all subs first to make the Med dangerous for the Allies) or concentrating on air power to control the Med.  At the end of turn 1, Italy had S. France, Bulgaria, Taken back 1 French African Territory (I forget the name), Sudan and 1 other UK east Africa Territory and overrun Alexandria.  They are in decent shape in Africa and can likely take Egypt on I2.  The Allies control the Med right now, but have no way of reinforcing the land battle in Africa.  An Italian fleet may need to wait, or be all subs till the Med is cleared out with German help.

Italy is MEANT to be a challenge, even for the veteran A&A player…. I think its a good challenge too.

How did UK attack with 2 DD’s? Where did the other one come from? Also, the carrier gets repaired by the naval base at gibraltar, so the planes can land on the carrier with the French Med fleet.

My bad, I meant the cruiser off Egypt.  And I knew we would get some rules wrong/forget some- like the repair one.

My point is still that Italy needs to concentrate on the land battle in Africa and build up her air force well before rebuilding her fleet in the Med.  It seems to just be a fact of the game.  She’ll still need German help to clear the Med as well.

@ll:

Ok, played through turn 1 last night. On G1 I sent 2 subs against the UK Carrier group, ended up losing both subs while only damaging the CV (the Tac landed in Gibralter).  On UK1 a combined fleet of 2 DDs, the Egyptian Fighter, the Tac and the damaged CV recreated Taranto taking out the SZ 95 fleet while losing a DD.  Italy struck back on her turn with her remaining air and sea units taking out the UK fleet losing a fighter.  The French fleet then wiped out the remaining Italians (damn bad rolling on Italy’s part).

At this point I think Italy just has to accept her fleet getting destroyed, and rely on either rebuilding (I’d go all subs first to make the Med dangerous for the Allies) or concentrating on air power to control the Med.  At the end of turn 1, Italy had S. France, Bulgaria, Taken back 1 French African Territory (I forget the name), Sudan and 1 other UK east Africa Territory and overrun Alexandria.  They are in decent shape in Africa and can likely take Egypt on I2.  The Allies control the Med right now, but have no way of reinforcing the land battle in Africa.  An Italian fleet may need to wait, or be all subs till the Med is cleared out with German help.

Italy is MEANT to be a challenge, even for the veteran A&A player…. I think its a good challenge too.

This was a faulty test.  Using 2 SUBs against the UK Gibraltar fleet is crazy dumb.  The German air power from W. Germany needs to be used against the UK/French fleet before you use the remaining Italian fleet like that(Italian fleet does mop up only).  If you choose not to use German air in that way, then send the Italian fleet as far east as possible(invade Transjordan with 1INF and 1ARM), UK/France will not be able to use the naval base in S. France since Italy takes it before F1/UK2.

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

@jeffdestroyer:

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

Why Cyprus? Why not Syria?

Whereas I have not been able to look at this issue in-depth yet, I would just caution people from jumping down the throats of people who make early balance claims. :)

One of my first posts when AAP40 came out was ‘So…how do the Allies win again?’ and I claimed that Japan had a tremendous advantage. I was immediately attacked by all these people who proclaimed that I couldnt know anything that early and how we had weak Allied players or how we were making assumptions about this or that etc etc etc. Well I gave up trying to convince people and came back 3-4 months later and lo and behold…everyone was complaining about how unstoppable Japan was lol.

The point being that yes, many claims about balance will obviously be premature at this point, but it’s certainly possible to see various trends even this early in the game’s life cycle.  :)

@calvinhobbesliker:

@jeffdestroyer:

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

Why Cyprus? Why not Syria?

Either would be fine, depending on the forces available in Egypt to counterstrike and the location of the TR that started in sz98. It might be in the Red Sea.
Syria might be better in order to move into Pro Axis Iraq.

@Uncle_Joe:

Whereas I have not been able to look at this issue in-depth yet, I would just caution people from jumping down the throats of people who make early balance claims. :)
The point being that yes, many claims about balance will obviously be premature at this point, but it’s certainly possible to see various trends even this early in the game’s life cycle.  :)

Well said!! It does look like Italy will get the short end of the stick without help from Germany. It also looks like threatening Sealion may help to save the Italian fleet……only time will tell. Also many people on these forums will attack Italy’s fleet UK1, but how many average Joe gamers who do not venture on the forums will actually do it?

I am guessing it will be roughly a 50/50 split, and will depend on the player. So at this point at least global is dependent on player moves, and not only the setup like revised. There seem to be many more options in AA40 than revised and limits the ammount of set opening moves. Many of these theories depend heavily on the G1 turn, and how the UK responds. So in my book that is a step forward from previous versions of the game.

I really don’t see why people automatically assume the Italians WILL start off without their western fleet before they start. I’ve simulated, multiple times, the UK attacking it with a fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser, and destroyer. Sometimes the UK wins but at great cost; sometimes it destroys the Italian ships without so much as a scratch. Other times the Italians would whoop the Brits back to England; other times they would be completely obliterated.

It really depends on the dice. The only way the UK increases its chance of winning is if it brings the carrier into the fray to soak up damage, in which case the planes would have nowhere to land if the carrier gets damaged. Honestly, I discourage a UK attack on the Italian fleet on UK1. Bring up the Gibraltar fleet with the French fleet, and get the UK fighter to land on the carrier. The Italians will think twice before attacking this combined Allied flotilla.

What about the Germans? Well, it all depends on whether they want to use the Luftwaffe to immediately try to take out the Allied fleet in the Med, or transfer the planes east for an imminent invasion of the USSR. It also depends on how much of the Luftwaffe survives the attack on France and the British navy.