Seperation of Church and State

@yourbuttocks:

Second, U.S. only religious country

i NEVER said that, atheist are very rare.

Also here my “full of crap” statistic.

FRANCE
source; Institue SOFRES

Nowadays, two millions of frenchmen have a Buddhist adhesion in the census (Express). IFOP '97: Good behavior of the Church in front of the preservatives, 25% yes, 69% is wrong; too much conservative the Pope (among practicings)? 51% yes. Another survey by the IFOP among the young people: adhesion with “make love, not the war” 93%, adhesion with “Neither owner nor god” 39%. In other poll, french people is 11% atheist, 38% agnostic. Tax of divorces in France: 36%, in Ille-de-France 50%. Poll of 1996; important decisions only with the personal conscience 83%; only with the Church postures 7%; both 9%. World Values Survey of 1991, 21% of weekly churchgoers, 13% with the religion as important in his/her life. A survey among the catholic practicings shows that the 69% believe that the christianity is pro immigrates, but 13% that it is compatible christianity and racism; 20% want that the Church defends the immigrates, 44% only helps them, and 13% doesn’t nothing. In poll '98, the french a favour of accept legally the couples of fact 76%; item the homosexual couples 68%. A BVA poll about the spirituality (1999): More close to catholicism 62%, protestantism 19%, Buddhism 11%, judaism 8%, islamism 6%. Regular churchgoers, 12%. According to the answers of the belief about god, 41% about one and personal, 9% deist, 22% agnostic posture, 26% atheist. Poll about the death (edited in “Psychologies” of november '98): After your death, what do you think what will happens to you ? 35% Nothing , 29% Don’t know, 13% a new life, 7% union with god, 5% reincarnation, 3% eternal life, 2% the soul continues living, 6% other answers. (more than 100% because there was one or two answers ).

• Abortions: 12.4, Ratio 17.7%.
• New statistic: 19% atheist; 6% pseudoatheist; 25% agnostic; 10% deist; 5% christian deist; 1% muslim; 5% New Age; 17% neodoukhobor; 12% catholic, majority churchgoer and of the Christian Right.

note that a pseudoatheist (i don’t like the name) is a non-materialist atheist and a neodoukhobor is a reincarnationist (or something like i am not even sure)…

You want a slugging match? A few quotes/links

The Pope in France in September
Pope John Paul II will visit France in September of this year, for the 1,500th anniversary of Roman Catholicism as France’s principal religion. The Pope will be in the country from September 19 to 22, for his sixth visit to France. He will visit the Loire valley, Brittany and Reims. In 496, King Clovis converted to Christianity and was the first ruler to submit himself to the authority of the Church, giving France the traditional name of the “oldest daughter of the Church.” The fifth underground nuclear test took place on December 27. The energy released was less than 30 kilotons.

-source: http://www.info-france-usa.org/publi/nff/96nff1/eve4.htm

Religions:

Roman Catholic 90%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim (North African workers) 1%, unaffiliated 6%

-Source: http://www.theodora.com/wfb/france_people.html

I dont know why people post a web page to support an augrement?
Just because something is on the web doesn’t make it true/fact.
The internet, for the most part is unregulated.
Anyone can create a web page and use it as tool to support their beliefs.
Just look at ( this is a extreme example but…) a white power web page, is everything they claim right?, no.

If your going to use a web page to support an augrement, at least try to use a few different references.

So Mr. Ghoul, the CIA is part of a conspiracy to convince the world that France is mostly Catholic? Just because you disagree with something does not make it not true Mr. Ghoul. Fisternis should have taught you that by now.

It looks like Fisternis is representative of the vocal fraction of French society.

The French Republic is a secular state where all religious faiths and denominations are represented.

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

wow, i am using survey from a France agencies, and what ? You give me thing that have no link with opinion. Like i said; in your stats there is no Atheist, no Agnostic, no Bouddhist, why ? Because it only consider how you are born, not what people think.

Sure France is (was?) catholic… but it’s dying really fast.

@yourbuttocks:

You want a slugging match? A few quotes/links

The Pope in France in September
Pope John Paul II will visit France in September of this year, for the 1,500th anniversary of Roman Catholicism as France’s principal religion. The Pope will be in the country from September 19 to 22, for his sixth visit to France. He will visit the Loire valley, Brittany and Reims. In 496, King Clovis converted to Christianity and was the first ruler to submit himself to the authority of the Church, giving France the traditional name of the “oldest daughter of the Church.” The fifth underground nuclear test took place on December 27. The energy released was less than 30 kilotons.

-source: http://www.info-france-usa.org/publi/nff/96nff1/eve4.htm
quote]

What does that have to do with the number of catholics living there?
If the Dalai Lama comes for a visit to France, does that mean they suddenly all turn buddhist?

@yourbuttocks:

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

You are posting american sites. Namely of that agency which caused the bombing of the chinese embassy in Belgrad because it used old city-maps.

I dreally don’t see why quoting a french site when it comes to facts about France is worth a “lol” to you.

Yeah, usually when you’re born into a religious faith you remain in it for the rest of your life. So I can’t believe there is such a high drop off from 90% to 12%. 90% does sound at little high since you do have to consider today’s standards. I’ll probably put that number around the 70’s to 80’s. Simply, religions don’t die out that fast (unless quickly replaced by another religion or being prosecuted for their beliefs).

“American Religions, a source based in the US or one in France?”

It depends. What if France was trying to promote the idea that it was a Catholic state. Then I would have to go with an outside source like the US. On other matters that aren’t so subjective I would go with France.

@TG:

Yeah, usually when you’re born into a religious faith you remain in it for the rest of your life. So I can’t believe there is such a high drop off from 90% to 12%. 90% does sound at little high since you do have to consider today’s standards. I’ll probably put that number around the 70’s to 80’s. Simply, religions don’t die out that fast (unless quickly replaced by another religion or being prosecuted for their beliefs).

12% Catholic, but some (lots) of Deist… Around 70’s and 80’s… you have clearly not visited France in the last century :) Anyway… i don,t say the survey is perfect (there’s no perfect survey), but when it come to the opinion of the people, i think we should ask the people…

The 38% agnostic is certainly because of the question that turn lot of Atheist/Deist into Agnostic…

"Anyway… i don,t say the survey is perfect (there’s no perfect survey), but when it come to the opinion of the people, i think we should ask the people… "

Well, that’s what I want to question. Exactly how many people participated in this survey? How was it done? What was the source of the survey? When was it conducted? Who conducted it? What was the purpose of this survey? Where was it conducted (this is VERY important)? Also, the problem with surveys is that not most of everybody has access to internet surveys. Age also plays a factor in such internet surveys. Until these questions are answered, I don’t think that there can be such at big cut off between 90% to 12%.

For now, I’ll have to stick with YB’s information. At least, I can visit the place and verify it. FinsterniS, where is your information coming from?

Until these questions are answered, I don’t think that there can be such at big cut off between 90% to 12%.

There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic. How can you not question the fact there is no agnostic, no deist in the “statistic” ? How can you not question the fact church are vacuum in France, but we are 90% catholic…

For now, I’ll have to stick with YB’s information. At least, I can visit the place and verify it. FinsterniS, where is your information coming from?

institue SOFRES

“There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic”

In this case, government statistic is based on previous public opinion and the gathering of information.

“institue SOFRES”

The French Institut SOFRES is integrated into the global net by SOFRES Worldwide. Therefore, it should have some website, which contains the poll. Where is it?

“There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic”

In this case, government statistic is based on previous public opinion and the gathering of information.

That is false but i will certainly not argue about statistic vs survey, that is pointless. If you really want to know ask someone that has been in France in the last decade…

I would never trust one person’s opinion, too biased.

@yourbuttocks:

So Mr. Ghoul, the CIA is part of a conspiracy to convince the world that France is mostly Catholic? Just because you disagree with something does not make it not true Mr. Ghoul. Fisternis should have taught you that by now.

It looks like Fisternis is representative of the vocal fraction of French society.

The French Republic is a secular state where all religious faiths and denominations are represented.

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

YB, my rant was not just directed at you.
Posting imforation from one website that shares your opinions doesn’t make your points right either.

For every website that claims one thing I can find some website that claims other.

Mutliple sources at give you a better general idea of what is or isnt fact/right.

I dont know where your CIA comment comes from or what lead you to that thought.

Another example of you not thinking very hard before you type something.

if i may, this is an odd series. Arguing how much of France is catholic, etc.
Let’s say it was 100 - 0.00001% catholic. Would it be right to have inclusion between church and state? If it were 0.00001% Catholic then would Catholics have any rights, or deserve freedom of religious expression?
Do FinsterniS’ data mean that France is more “scientific” than North America, or just that it doesn’t really care or think about spiritual matters?
Does North America’s Christian stats mean that it is not as scientific (yeah right - just look at La Jolla, John’s Hopkins, MIT etc, never mind Canadian ivy leagues) or that they are more willing to consider things outside of the measurable physical realm?
And does America’s high “deist” rate give the people authority to submit a Christian mandate to their leaders? (stupid as Bush might be?)

I will note that i never make any interpretation, too dangerous.

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

Second, every French site I consulted refused to list census details on religious breakdown.

Third, Budhists and Agnostics, and etc. were included in breakdown, its just that they were lumped together in a 6% category.

Fourth, your data, Fisternis appears to be from some sort of magazine survey/phone survey, rather than a government census, which my data obtensibly claims to be. Plus, we cannot independently verify it like you can my statistics.

@yourbuttocks:

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

The CIA has the same reason to lie (if not more) than any french site.
Public information of the CIA is (if they are a good angency) half true (to keep ppl not suspecting) and half false (to let them think what they want / if they are enemies who look, to misinform them).
Therefore an Intelligence Agency usually has more reason to lie than any other “offical” sites.

So, why did you “lol” at Finsternis quoting a french site???