Seperation of Church and State

I would like to say politics should be taken out of politics and that we could return to the “Era of Good Feelings” (ie no political parties). But in today’s government, that’s almost impossible. As George Washington even said, “It’s a necessary evil.”

PS: Yanny, why don’t you make a poll on the Pledge of Alligence question?

what exactly is this Pledge about? Being overseas i haven’t heard anything about it.
But for the separation of state and religion: Isn’t that one of the things that the USA opposed strongly in the Iran, that they have laws which correspond to the religion of the majority of their ppl? Isn’t Israel more of a Theocracy than a Democracy?
TO me, the US is the most fundamental christian state (see the dumb laws above) in the world, and strangely enough it uses its strength to go against muslim fundamentalist states for the reason that they are fundamentalists, but spares Israel of the same treatment, even though they are pretty close to the same fundamentalism just following another faith.

Some people want to declare the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional and remove it from school and other places (or at least amend it), which I find totally ridiculous – even as myself not being part of this Christian “God.”

"It should be removed. Its unconstitutional, and was only passed in 1954 because Eisenhower fed propaganda to the US citizens about the “Athiest Soviets”.

In the Newdow Case (Pledge of Allegiance ruled unconstitutional) the fundamental question is what the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause means.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” is clearly written to guard against the establishment of a state-sponsored religion. However, exercising the right of religion cannot be infringed.

However law doesn’t normally condition ones behavior on how it will affect others around them. Instead, we are told to avert our eyes and turn our heads away from something we find objectionable.

The Pledge of Allegiance isn’t the only document to use the words “God,” implying a Creator. Let’s look at the The Declaration of Independence the Founders write:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are “endowed by their Creator with” certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
…
We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
…
And for the support of this Declaration, “with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence”, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

What are we to do now if the Pledge of Allegiance is upheld as unconstitutional? Do we amend the Declaration of Independence itself next?

poor poor US of A

First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not an official document of the United States and does not have any bearing on laws or practices in modern America. I think the pledge of alliegence is a really dumb idea, why should we have schoolchildren recite any kind of nationalistic slogan, speech, ect. at all? It sounds a little bit like what those godless communists would have done in the middle of the cold war. Ok kiddies, it’s time once again to pound into you the virtues of living in this great nation by reciting something together; doesn’t it make you feel good to be part of this great nation where everyone can say the exactly the same thing together. Not only do I find the pledge completely inaccurate and untrue, but that sort of conformity bothers me a great deal.

Of course the declaration of independence is an official U.S. document. it brought the U.S. into being.

“Of course the declaration of independence is an official U.S. document. it brought the U.S. into being.”

Haha, good one.

“The Declaration is just a piece of history, not a legal document.”

The fact that the Pledge of Allegiance happens to be some sort of “legal document” means it can be declared unconstitutional, compared with the “less important” Declaration. Our country was born on the Declaration; it’s a legal document in the way that it [13 colonies] declared independence from England.

With the Pledge Unconstitutional, what’s next? The Supreme Court, itself, begins each of its sessions with the phrase, “God save the United States and this honorable court.” Congress begins each session of the Congress each day with a prayer. The Supreme Court has previously upheld the motto on our currency. In its own chambers the Supreme Court has a motif of all the great lawgivers, including Moses [hahaha, that’s me] with the Ten Commandments. And of course, our currency says, “In God We Trust.”

I wonder if we should have a poll if those words on our money made people become more religious. Do the words “Under God” in the Pledge suddenly turn atheist into religious fanatics?

“I think the pledge of alliegence is a really dumb idea, why should we have schoolchildren recite any kind of nationalistic slogan, speech, ect. at all? It sounds a little bit like what those godless communists would have done in the middle of the cold war. Ok kiddies, it’s time once again to pound into you the virtues of living in this great nation by reciting something together; doesn’t it make you feel good to be part of this great nation where everyone can say the exactly the same thing together. Not only do I find the pledge completely inaccurate and untrue, but that sort of conformity bothers me a great deal.”

Maybe we should ban the Star Spangled Banner because some people fine lines offensive to them. Tell me how the pledge is “completely inaccurate and untrue.” Should there not be liberty and justice for all? And not to the Republic for which it stands? Let’s say I start a club, and one of the first motions of a meeting is to recite our Chapter’s Pledge. Now while most of the members have grown to love it, I have grown tired of it. Now will they point a gun to my head and say, “Do this… OR ELSE you’re out of the club!” No, it’s optional. If I don’t want to hear it, I’m free to leave the club tree house and come back after the rest of the members have finished reciting it. This is true for America, the Pledge is optional. However, does this give me the right to take it away from the people who actually like reciting the pledge? The Pledge of Allegiance is conformist, it’s a way of unifying us together.

“TG, are you forced to Listen to the Supreme Court reciting that? Are you forced to listen to the National Anthem? All I want is the “Under God” removed from the Pledge, and the “In God we Trust” removed from all future money.”

Who says you’re “forced” to listen to the Pledge of Allegiance? I’m sure if you find the words “Under God” so bad, feel free to leave. I’m sure the teachers allow that (well under the court edict at least). Other than schools, you don’t hear the pledge very often; in fact you hardly hear it at all once you get to high school.

Also, there are some parts of the Pledge of the Allegiance I might edit out. For instance, the word “Indivisible” (as in “For the Republic which it stands, under God, Indivisible”) is disgraceful to Confederates like myself. It was purposely written by some damnYankees trying to “brainwash” kids into believing the Union cannot be separated, something we had to fight a “second war for independence” over and loss. Now, should me and my confederate friends from the Dixie get together to declare the pledge unconstitutional? I think not. One of the Judges of the Newdow case wrote that the use of “one Nation under God” is ok, because its use has “drained [it] of meaning.” Now some religious folks may not agree with it, but I think the judge was right in the fact that if you recite something over and over, it starts to lose meaning. Sort of like the topic “What does Liberty mean?”

Young kids really don’t understand the Pledge anyway. It means little to them. When your in high school, you say it or not, you might question it, once. Just another minute in the drab homeroom scene at the start of each day. Point being, the people saying the words probably could care less. The decision suited some adult complaint. My kid sang patriotic songs at the beginning of each day in 1st grade this past year. This is probably due to 9/11. Propaganda, maybe. It could be viewed similarly. Face it. Christianity is part of western culture. All facets of life are effected by it. Shall we hunt down and remove every little reference to silence the complaints? We could, and maybe we are. Seems to me like we could be focusing on the real problems hurting this country instead…

cnn reports a poll stating that 9 in 10 want the phrase left in. If the majority were to rule in this case, would this be “tyranny by majority”, “victory for democracy”, or “back to square one for atheists”?

@TG:

“The fact that the Pledge of Allegiance happens to be some sort of “legal document” means it can be declared unconstitutional, compared with the “less important” Declaration. Our country was born on the Declaration; it’s a legal document in the way that it [13 colonies] declared independence from England.

So, it is then a legal document under british legislation, as there were no USA yet, and the colonies who wished to seperate were british.
How much legal importance does it have to the US (not historic, but legal)?

And th Pledge of Alligence does? Unless you’re saying we should also edit the Declaration also.

So a foreigner reciting the Pledge of Alligence in the bathroom in the middle of the night is against the law? If so, what’s the punishment?