Attacking sub withdrawl after a naval victory?

Guys,

Here’s a really fun house rule that my friends and I play by:

If subs are present on both sides of a naval battle at the end of a round, then the defensive subs may submerge, but the battle continues between the subs. You shouldn’t be able to submerge against another sub, right? So just let the subs duke out a seperate battle below the other naval and air units.

If you looking for “historical correctness,” those opposing subs shouldn’t even have been dukin’ it out in the first place. In WWII you rarely (if ever) saw any sub vs sub battles due to their impossibility. The only way I think this would be feasible is if you waited for the other sub to be forced to surface (for oxygen) first before firing.

As far as sub rules go, I play with a couple, especially when it comes to detection (though these would require destroyers). However two I like to play with is sub-pens and wolf packs. For anyone interested:

Wolf-packs
If 3 or more Subs attack together, they obtain wolf-pack status and one sub (the leader) adds 1 to its attack value.

Sub-Pens
A sub may choose to remain inactive by using it’s non-combat phase to dock in a sub-pen (any coastal territory under the team’s control with an IC). That sub is considered “submerged,” until the beginning of that player’s next turn.

Zero - without an official ruling from the game creators or MB, I’d say use it as a house rule…

The rule clarifications that come with all the second edition rules that I’ve seen atate pretty clearly that if an attacking sub clears the zone of enemy units it cannot retreat or withdraw.

I think the ‘withdraw’ option if you look at it in a time frame perspective goes like this:

When subs withdraw, they do it while the battle continues. So when they don’t get to withdraw at the end of the battle, it’s not like they ‘sat around’ afterwards for a while doing nothing… they were actually fighting in the battle the whole time instead. But… if the battle continues, they use that time to slip away. If they slipped away AFTER the battle was over, it would illegally extend their movement, because they would be using a round of game time that doesn’t exist.

Make sense?

If you are looking for historic accuracy with subs this game is way off. Subs sunk about 90% of the tonnage in the pacific in WWII and almost all of that was transports. Subs did not go after destroyers, battleships and other warships, because it was too dangerous. Also almost all of the transports were sunk with deck guns and would have had a hard time finding each other underwater, much less hitting each other with torpedos.

P. 17 2nd edition rules:
Submarine “can withdraw from a battle after ANY round of firing”.
I guess that includes the last round. :o

Didn’t read the clarification. :oops:

I’m with Scotty, he got it EXACTLY right! So beam me up.

Checking the rules or deciding to play a rules variation shortens these arguments.
Thyis was a lotta posts for a simple topic!

Do you have a problem with a lot of posts? A lot of people :wink: like to post just for the sake of posting.

“Whut you talkin’ 'bout, Willis?”

Re: Sub rules … keep in mind that all SUBS retreating on the same round of battle must retreat to the same sz(through which at least one attacking unit entered the battle.) :roll:

@Xi:

“Whut you talkin’ 'bout, Willis?”

Re: Sub rules … keep in mind that all SUBS retreating on the same round of battle must retreat to the same sz(through which at least one attacking unit entered the battle.) :roll:

Are you sure? I thought naval units had a little more flexibility & could retreat back to ANY empty SZ–not just one from which one of the attackers came from, as would be the case w/ land units.

The key term is back. That is, “generally away from the enemy concentrations”.

This may have been corrected in newer versions, I dunno–the rule IS pretty vague…

Ozone27

Xi is right about withdrawing attacking subs. Also in general all attacking naval units withdrawing on the same round must retreat to the same sz(through which at least one attacking unit entered the battle.)

Here is the vague part: 2nd edition rules say defending subs must withdraw to ANY ONE adjacent friendly or unoccupied sz. In the “Clarification” ( :roll: ), it says they withdraw BACK to one adjacent friendly or unoccupied sz. What’s the ruling here in the forum?

It’s not such a simple topic is it, Xi? :wink:

Clarification, variation, clarification. :wink:

“Let me say this about that …”

When subs withdraw from combat, where can they go?

If the subs were attacking, they can withdraw to any adjacent sea zone that naval units came from when launching this attack.
If the subs are defending, the rules state they can withdraw to any friendly or unoccupied adjacent sea zone. Ultimately, both of these amount to the same thing; any sea zone that does not contain enemy naval vessels or aircraft at the time the subs withdraw. That last bit is very important because it means defending subs can withdraw into sea zones that the attacking forces came from, thus cutting off the attacker’s avenue of retreat. As long as there are no enemy units currently in a sea zone, it’s a legal withdrawal path for defending subs. (Units on an island don’t matter; they’re in a land territory, not in the sea zone.)

BB

Okay,I’ve got the second ed. with the Rules Clarification sheet. On p. 2, col. 3, it says …
“If several defending subs withdraw on the same round, they must also withdraw to the same sz-BACK to one adjacent friendly or unoccupied sz.”

What does the third ed. say?
:-?

Yep, that’s what it says. But I just copied and pasted what was said at:
http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=faq/axis

So I think that pret’near takes care of that.

BB

D’oh…. Not logged in again…

BB