Submarine FAQ Question

Can you make what would normally be a non-combat move with a transport, during the combat move phase, so that it can be accompanied by a surface warship which is making a combat move?

Scenario:
A transport wants to move troops from one friendly territory to another friendly territory, but has to end its move in a sea zone with an enemy sub. A fleet of friendly warships is going to pass through/start in the transport’s sea zone, move through the sub’s sea zone, and then move on to attack an enemy fleet in a sea zone beyond. Can the transport be moved now, so that it doesn’t have to make an unprotected move later?

The answer is no, thanks to Krieghund for answering it before it was even posted. Now that’s quick.

@Krieghund:

There are a few exceptions, but most combat moves must result in combat.  Those exceptions aside, a transport will not be moving in combat movement unless it’s doing an amphibious assault.  If it is doing so, other ships may move along with it in order to support that assault, whether to fight the preliminary sea battle or to provide supporting bombardment.  If there is a chance of defending air units scrambling, ships and/or planes may move along with the transports in order to deal with that eventuality.

In any case, no land or sea unit may move in both combat and noncombat movement.  Only air units may do that.

So, this means any warship that accompanies a transport to protect it from subs, during the combat move phase, has to end its move in the same sea zone as the transport, and may not move on to another sea zone to participate in a different attack, right?

This won’t tie up a whole fleet though, because you only need to assign one of the surface warships to accompany the transport. The rest of the fleet could make a separate combat move that attacks the sea zone beyond.

@moompix:

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away, they aren’t moving at all until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protect its transports, it will almost always do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be.

This is a stretch for even this sneak attack rule . Your already allowing the sub (a $6 unit) to attack a transport in its sz (in the enemies turn), your also basically extending its range into the next sz (w/o moving) to allow an attack if the tpt doesn’t pair up in a prior sz, or separates from its escort after it leaves (giving this $6 unit control over 3 sz’s). Now you can also fire your one shot 2 sz away. That can’t be right!!!

I understand how this rule comes into play. I think that protecting your tpt’s should be a top priority. I can see the logic behind escorting your tpt’s from start to finish. This rule is becoming a monster though. Most players will not get it, or will think they understand, but will still get parts wrong. I’m not sure its possible to word it w/o creating confusion. There will need to be several Q & A in the FAQ to cover the many before and after scenarios. I have heard Larry say that if you make rules to complicated it takes the fun out of the game. This may be one of those times that politically correct should take a back seat to ease of game-play. I will hold back any further judgment until I see what Krieghund puts together. He does have a way with words, and should get a raise if he pulls this one off.

@Krieghund:

I do want to address this, though:

@WILD:

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)

This is incorrect.  Subs never block movement.  Stopping to attack a sub with one ship does not keep another from moving through the sea zone.  Combat doesn’t begin until the Conduct Combat phase, so movement through the sea zone is still free even if you’re attacking the sub.

Yea my bad, thanks for setting me straight K. I knew how that worked, just had a brain fart while posting.

Back to the topic at hand, it is possible for one sub to be involved in 3 different battles in the same enemies turn. If a DD & tpt come into the subs sz together (started same sz) no problem so far. The transport wants to continue to the next sz to meet up with another fleet for an ampib, but the DD is going to stay behind and engage the sub (wants to clear sz for non combat moves or convoy’s).
1st battle-The sub would get one shot @ 2 at the tpt (because it moved w/o escort leaving sz) in the combat move phase.
2nd battle- sub gets its def roll(s) @1 in combat phase (say DD is killed, but sub survives).
3rd battle- could this also occur (non combat move phase) if you move tpt through subs sz w/o proper escort, because you failed to clear the sz in the earlier battle.

**I know the sub gets one shot @2, I’m not clear if it gets that one shot in each of the move phases (combat move & non combat move), or is it one or the other?

**If the sub submerges in the combat phase would it be able to fire at a tpt in the non combat phase?
Again if eligible based on shots it gets in the movement phases from above.

This seems like a lot of power for a 6 IPC unit to have. Its not that it possibly gets to fire in all 3 phases, that’s actually pretty cool. Its more that it gets to dictate the movement in surrounding sz.

@WILD:

I will hold back any further judgment until I see what Krieghund puts together. He does have a way with words, and should get a raise if he pulls this one off.

Second that.

Please keep subs simple. They shouldn’t rule the sea (that much).

You’ve seen it.  This is the final version, unless you guys can find a situation it doesn’t cover.  The purpose of this discussion at this point is to see if the wording covers all situations, not to question the validity of the rule itself.

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

@moompix:

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

That would be my only question as well.

For balance I would think one shot only per phase regardless of how many transports moved through in different routes each phase.  Other than the fact that you can leave a transport alone in the enemy subs seazone by continuing to move the warship, everything about this rule seems ok to me.

Once per phase could lead to the following:

A player moves a lone unloaded transport through a sea zone containing 5 enemy subs. The subs attack, most likely destroying the transport. That player now safely moves 5 fully loaded unaccompanied transports through the sea zone.

Of course, this may be the last game of A&A that player plays with that group, but still.

You could choose to not shoot at that first transport, obviously the player is trying to be sneaky, best wait for the juicier target.

What if the player tries to move them one at a time through the sea zone? as a way to try and insure only one can be destroyed, or as a way to make it so only one sub shoots at each transport. Lets say the player has 5 transports that might make a move through the sea zone containing 5 subs. He moves one. OK, he’s up to something, I’ll fire with just one sub. He moves another, I’ll fire with another sub. He moves a third, I’ll fire with my third sub. He doesn’t try to move any others through the sea zone. If he had moved them all at once, all 5 of the subs would have fired, making a kill more likely.

I don’t really expect the errata to try and cover this situation, though. I can take care of it myself, with a quick toss out the door.

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

@moompix:

Once per phase could lead to the following:

A player moves a lone unloaded transport through a sea zone containing 5 enemy subs. The subs attack, most likely destroying the transport. That player now safely moves 5 fully loaded unaccompanied transports through the sea zone.

Of course, this may be the last game of A&A that player plays with that group, but still.

You could choose to not shoot at that first transport, obviously the player is trying to be sneaky, best wait for the juicier target.

What if the player tries to move them one at a time through the sea zone? as a way to try and insure only one can be destroyed, or as a way to make it so only one sub shoots at each transport. Lets say the player has 5 transports that might make a move through the sea zone containing 5 subs. He moves one. OK, he’s up to something, I’ll fire with just one sub. He moves another, I’ll fire with another sub. He moves a third, I’ll fire with my third sub. He doesn’t try to move any others through the sea zone. If he had moved them all at once, all 5 of the subs would have fired, making a kill more likely.

I don’t really expect the errata to try and cover this situation, though. I can take care of it myself, with a quick toss out the door.

Movement is still simultaneous, and by eliminating the vague wording from before of needing a warship in that seazone, there is no leapfrogging possible.  You’re moving 6 unaccompanied transports through on the same phase (combat move).  5 of them are getting shot at.  If you move another 6 through on noncombat, 5 of them are getting shot at.  It doesn’t matter which move point or if there are multiple paths or groups:  6 unaccompanied transports find themselves in the enemy subs’ seazone.  5 are getting shot at.  Just like Kamikazees, the firing occurs after the combat move is finalized, but before the combat phase occurs.  You can’t adjust as you go based on how severly the subs slaughtered your transports.

@kcdzim:

Movement is still simultaneous, and by eliminating the vague wording from before of needing a warship in that seazone, there is no leapfrogging possible.  You’re moving 6 unaccompanied transports through on the same phase (combat move).  5 of them are getting shot at.  If you move another 6 through on noncombat, 5 of them are getting shot at.  It doesn’t matter which move point or if there are multiple paths or groups:  6 unaccompanied transports find themselves in the enemy subs’ seazone.  5 are getting shot at.  Just like Kamikazees, the firing occurs after the combat move is finalized, but before the combat phase occurs.  You can’t adjust as you go based on how severly the subs slaughtered your transports.

I agree with that. Don’t actually roll for the attacks, while moves are still being made. Note which transports moved through a particular sea zone unaccompanied, then make a single attack roll against all of them. It’s really not going to be a big deal keeping this straight. Players are going to make sure their transports are accompanied most of the time. You might have a few unaccompanied moves through sub infested waters per game, tops.

This is the rule from AA40P page #30 (thought it might help)

Does Not Block Enemy Movement:
_The “stealth” ability of subs also allows enemy ships to ignore their presence. Any sz that contains only enemy subs does not stop the movement of a sea unit. Sea units ending their combat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs may choose to attack them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs."

There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."_

This is the Q & A from the Unofficial Errata/FAQ on the subject from 1-26-2010 (soon to be out dated)

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do friendly surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  A surface warship that starts its movement along with one or more transports and moves with them will prevent sub attacks.  Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

If you notice in the answer part it sounds like the tpt and SW Ship roles are reversed, giving extra movement to the tpt. The SW Ship doesn’t need to start its move w/tpt, the tpt needs to start its movement w/SW Ship. (This should be pulled it makes things even more confusing)

This is the last Q & A Krieghund posted, I’m not sure if it is totally replacing the above Q & A, or is in addition to it.
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2010, 05:46:09 pm »

OK, we’re taking this thing in a different direction:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*

1. If a tpt will either move into or pass through a sz containing a sub, and it moved by itself (unescorted) prior to the sub sz, or after it left it, the sub is eligible to fire its one shot @ 2, even if the unescorted move was 2 sz away from the subs sz.

2. If a tpt is escorted properly into the sz containing a sub to preform an ampib (tpt is staying), but its only escort is moving on to the next sz for an attack, is the tpt safe from the sub. It was accompanied through all its moves. Seems if you abandon it though it should not be safe.

3. Is this line from the 1-26-Errata  still in the running:  
   Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

Why I ask is if you bring in a SW Ship to attack the sub, and it submerges you would have a SW Ship in the sz (that can’t move). It would be doing the same thing (patrol) as the above statement. This shouldn’t prevent attack in the CM phase (the combat/patrol took place after CM phase), but should offer protection afterwords in the non CM phase base on the same principle as above.

4. A sub can attack …… in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2)
   This could be taken 2 ways:
   a) The sub gets to fire its one shot in each enemy move phase (2 shots total per sub per enemy turn).
     would need to say: Each sub fires once per enemy movement phase
   b) The sub only gets one shot per enemy turn and must choose which phase to fire.
      would need to say: in either combat or noncombat movement (choose one)

The way you want tpt protected at all times I think its probably (a), but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

@WILD:

From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*

The rules are what is in the rulebook and this FAQ:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

@WILD:

3. Is this line from the 1-26-Errata  still in the running: 
   Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

No.

The idea is that a warship that accompanies the transport for its entire move is escorting it.  In any other case, it just happens to be in the same sea zone, so it affords no protection.

Sound’s good ,I think this rule helps make the sub’s  historical threat real, you really didn’t move TR’s around the Pacific unaccompanied during WWll.

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.

A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.

Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.

@moompix:

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.

A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.

Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.

Ok we seem to be loading up on the sub gets one shot @ 2 in each of the 2 move phases (combat, and non combat). It gets this ability in each enemies turn (as long as it is deemed the tpt(s) was unescorted at some point).

Clue us in here Krieghund, is this the intent of the rule?
Thanks WB

@Razor:

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.

How about this Razor, stop being so negative.  The Errata is NOT OFFICIAL, therefore work to help make the wording solid and airtight so that is can stand the test of time when is it does become official.

Thanks, Ryx.

The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon.  Anybody else see that?