Alternate German Strat?

[Guest]

OK, OK… I know this topic comes up every few weeks.

But at O’Dark-Thirty in the morning with coffee in hand the outline of some ideas came to my head, and I wanted to get some feedback on them…

Assume typical KGF strat is planned for the Allies…
In G1, Germany buys land forces (heavy on INF) and perhaps a FIG.  Takes Karelia ultra-light, liberates Ukraine or Belo light, typical Egypt and Gibraltar BB attacks.
NCM pull any remaining land forces out of Norway via TRN, move Baltic fleet to SZ7, land Norway INF in Western.

In G2:
Buy a TRN for the Med, and more land forces (mostly INF)
Any surviving Baltic fleet moves into the Med (or attacks Allied navy in SZ12 w/ FIG support from Western)

G3 and subsequent:
Germany uses massed INF and AF to secure Germany, Western and Eastern.
Russian offensive maintained using INF, ART, AF, and ARM
Africa taken and secured using 2-3 TRN and combined fleet.
Med secured by combined fleet.
Primary strike on Russia aimed at Caucuses w/ only minimal picket/trading forces shielding.

This is paired with a Southern Prong emphasis strike in Asia by Japan, with nearly all available resources used to support advances out of FIC, through India, and into Persia to threaten Caucuses from the South.  Minimal force to the north to take “free” IPC’s from Russia, and take-and-hold in China, with possible trading of Sinkiang if Russia is pushing back.  Some IPC raiding by Japan also… Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar…

Initial Questions…
Can any amount of that Baltic Fleet survive exposed in SZ7 for 1 round to make it to the Med?
Can Germany hold against northern Allied landings that are basically unrestricted?
Can the Axis take enough of UK’s income fast enough (the 18 IPC’s from Africa and around the Indian Ocean) to prevent UK from totally dominating northern Europe?
With UK reinforcement free from the north, can Germany/Japan succeed in taking Russia via Caucuses route?

[xenon]

1. I don´t thing your fleet will survive in SZ 7. They won´t make it to the mediterrean, because the brits have to attack it and would be stupid not do do so even if it means losing figs. If this fleet reaches the med+ a jap AC it is the mare nostrum of the axis.

The alternativ is an AC in the baltic and the occupation of Gibraltar G1 with BB+trans+inf. This allows a fleet unification in SZ 7 on G2, which is much more promising. A heavy landing from france to algeria or french west africa is possible on G3 (2trans).
If you buy an additional trans in the baltic G1 the effect will be even bigger. This additional trans may also deter any attempt to attack this fleet.
Tradeoff: Egypt G1 is very risky with tk+ inf+ 2 figs+ bomber. But no Eygpt attack would make all airforce available for the Sealion fake. Uk should have bought more fighters with only the AC bought. With this additional trans it may be forced to add landforces to defend GB and maybe the US reinforces too, because now it´s 3 trans+airforce and as a german player you should naturally have the reputation of a crazy lunatic. :evil:

2. The german fleet in the baltic is dead on UK1 mostly and GB may land in norway unrestricted and rebuild ships in SZ3.  In early game it is dangerous for the british fleet to enter the baltic. This invites germany to trade fighters with a weak british fleet.
   But later this is Germany´s weakest point, because the infantry flow to eastern front may be broken by a suicide landing in Eastern Europe.
   Generally you should be able to hold the north (W-Europe E-Europe at least)  for quite a while. Japanese fighters stationed in Germany itself are a good thing. Japan won´t need all its fighters if the allies go KGF. Only the first 2-3 turns they are necessary to grab land quickly.

3. Yes, they may, but not very fast. India, Australia and NZL should be occupied by J3. That´s -6. For Germany it´s a difficult task to do something early on: Egypt is a deadzone, a counterattack with the indian fleet is common. See 1) for a landing on G3. This may force the western allies to do something about it. And you want them to chase you in Africa, because that means less forces in the north. The attack on egypt depends on how risk avoiding you are and if you want to bluff Sealion.

4. With the british reinforcemts from the north it´s surely going to be more difficult, but that will slow the game and give more opportunities to the axis to grab land.The Brits may reach Caucasus, but that´s 3 turns. If the british forces are concentrated there they are not in Africa and that´s a good thing, because then the US has to that job. Which means: no landings in Europe.

[U-505]

Can any amount of that Baltic Fleet survive exposed in SZ7 for 1 round to make it to the Med?

Absolutely. The subs can submerge. Although, they will likely be attacked by the US bomber on it’s way to the UK.
If the Brits bring only air and hit you 3 times in the 1st round, you might want to save the DD and take a potshot at one of the fighters because one sub is probably going to be killed by the US bomber. If the Brits hit 1 or less on the 1st round, you can also lose a sub and hope to hit with the DD or TP to force them to push a combat with bad odds or retreat and let the bulk of your Baltic navy make the channel dash safely. Submerged subs in sz7 also have an added benefit of scaring the allied fleets away from the Channel and mouth of the Med because on the off chance that the US bomber misses it can be really ugly for the allied fleets there. But you’ll have to position the bulk of your air forces in W Eur or north Africa to make the threat stick.

Can Germany hold against northern Allied landings that are basically unrestricted?

I believe you can. Your best bet for survival would probably be to try to drive a wedge in between the UK/US forces and the Russians to prevent them from massing in one territory. The longer you can keep the UK/US bottled up in the north the less Russian reinforcements you’ll see because Japan will start demanding more and more of Russia’s attention.

Can the Axis take enough of UK’s income fast enough (the 18 IPC’s from Africa and around the Indian Ocean) to prevent UK from totally dominating northern Europe?

That’s a hard question to answer.
The UK never really dominates in Europe. They need allied help. If Russia is pushed far enough, the UK is little more than a nuisance to Germany even if they are landing max ground units. But it becomes more significant if the US is also landing units and the total force becomes 12+ units per turn. Which brings me to the real reason for the threat of mass African landings by Germany.

Diversion. Specifically aimed at the US. Landing in Africa either forces the US to divert their forces to Africa or let Germany get a whole bunch of free money for little effort. The Axis should always be looking for their units to be doing something not being idle. They should either be killing something or moving someplace to kill something. if you let the allies bog you down into a war of attrition you will lose. Africa provides you with the ability to kill things and move to kill things. The TP’s also serve a dual purpose in that respect. You can not only cork up Egypt and pinball a couple armor down south to grab the money but with the second TP you can also threaten a whole bunch of territories with a good amount of force or just bring the African units home to provide extra punch in Europe if needed.

Don’t get me wrong, the money is important, but what’s more important in Africa is isolating the allies, specifically the US, in their own little theaters where you can destroy them individually as opposed to trying to crash through a combined allied wall.

With UK reinforcement free from the north, can Germany/Japan succeed in taking Russia via Caucuses route?

The north is NEVER free from UK reinforcement. There is rarely a time when the UK will have an empty transport, even with Africa lost, it just depends on whether there are armor being TP’d or just all inf.

Germany’s role in the Caucasus route will most likely be to trade Russian reinforcements to allow Japan to make some headway in Asia. But don’t forget the Afrika corps. If the heat gets too much from the US you don’t have to TP them back to Europe. You can always walk them to Persia. By then Japan will probably own it and those German reinforcements can really put the screws to Russia in Caucasus.

Hope that helped.

[frimmel]

1- Well I’m guessing you are pulling the Norway forces out to WEU so the Baltic Fleet is just closer to the UK FTRs and BMBr. So any player inclined to attack it in the Baltic will attack it in SZ7 and in SZ7 you are now in range of the US BMBr which doesn’t really have anything to do on US1 in a KGF unless the Japanese didn’t attack Pearl but it is KGF so I’m not biting. If the Brits get the DD and TRN I am definitely taking a swing at those subs with the BMBr. I would think the best than you can plan will make it are two subs. Anything else making it is a gift from Lady Luck.

**2-**In KGF the Allies are going to pump troops somewhere. Either KAR, or ARC or thru EEU or build up and build up and drop a ton in WEU. I don’t think G is going to stem that except to sink Allied shipping or take the UK money.

**3-**With TRN in the MED you can move INF from SEU to the UKR faster than marching them. So in that respect two TRNs in the MED is almost as good as an AC in the baltic. Faster INF reinforcement to UKR. This navy build buys you time by stealing it from the Allies.

To take the UK income with Germany you have to commit to taking EGY. You will have to commit Aircraft. You may have to give them up to conserve ground troops for the Counter from IND. You have to have an ARM remaing in EGY on G2 or you aren’t taking anything from UK in Africa.

If your subs are numbering three at Gibraltar (which seems unlikely) or in SZ12 you may be able to stall the US landings in ALG and keep them from contesting your pillaging of Africa via FWA so you have to try to break out what you can of the Baltic fleet.

Africa is a distraction. Raiding UK income is a distraction. This brings us to number 4.

**4-**Can the Axis succeed in taking Russia is the question of whether or not they can win the game isn’t it?

If the pressure on Russia is great enough the UK has to keep those troops flowing to Russian territories which means they won’t be landing in WEU which has the effect of protecting German income. If the pressure on Russia is great enough Germany is fighting a one front war–Until the Big Green Machine gets rolling.

Can the Axis break Russia before the US is in the fight? That is what the game is all about isn’t it?

So to that end I would say TRNs in the MED are a good idea. Use them to get INF to the front. Speed the march on MOS. INF built in Southern on G1 are in UKR at the end of G2 with MED transport not G3 by foot. I don’t know. Is that more time saved than an AC in the Baltic? 6 INF a turn built in SEU to UKR a turn for the 16 you would spend on an AC?

[trihero]

I like U-505’s version of the Baltic escape, meeting the SZ8 sub with the Baltic fleet in SZ7. That gives you about 50% to wipe out the entire UK airforce should it decide to come alone. I think a carrier buy + naval link is the nastiest shock you can give the Allies and I’d like to try it against someone sometime (which may never happen at the rate I keep playing the Allies  :wink: ), but U-505’s Baltic escape is the slickest you can get without buying a navy in the north.

[U-505]

Another significant benefit to having the Baltic fleet in sz7 is preventing the British aircraft from going too far from home. I have seen many an allied player advocate moving the UK bomber as far as Sink or Yakut on UK1 to prevent the Japanese from leaving unguarded transports in sz61. The bomber can’t reach sz61 if it has to go to sz7 to attack the Baltic fleet so the Japanese player is free to use their entire navy for offensive purposes and won’t have to buy TP escorts on J1.

[trihero]

I’m going to do some more studying with a couple transports in the Med, but I remember from experience that it ends up costing a lot of units down south, certainly a lot of units when uk/us dump a truckload in Africa. The Japanese could be the key though to holding Africa. Sorta like I was suggesting with the Japanese AF going to Egypt, you could focus along the south to reinforce Germany’s gains there. There is always the problem of focusing too much on Africa and not enough in Europe though; being up most of Africa isn’t going to help much when you’ve lost Southern and everything east of Berlin because you’re just out of position if you try to push anywhere with your capital always being threatened.

Recently I like to apply Allied principles to the Axis; that’s partly why I like this idea, Switch. The Allies are strongest when working together with their forces piled up with each other, so why not try it a bit with Japan and Germany through Egypt?

[U-505]

Certainly, bulking up the Med fleet has it’s weaknesses. Just different ones than bulking up the Baltic fleet.

It requires, at times, careful micromanagement, and sometimes Japanese support, to keep it from crashing and I am still struggling with issues brought about in turn 2 and beyond.

But, the extra TP, and maybe CV, gives you the added flexibility to make mass troop movements all over Asia, Africa and Europe. The CV provides wide-ranging air support without having to split aircraft to both Africa and Europe.

Remember, you DON’T HAVE to take Africa if the allies put up heavy resistance there. The ‘threat’ is enough to draw allied attention to that theater. Sometimes, it may be better to move your African units back to Europe to shore up your defenses or exploit an opening. And if the German eastern front begins to collapse the Med fleet can be used to drop troops behind the front lines to disrupt the Russian reinforcement train.

It may just turn out to be a novelty strat once an allied player finds a backbreaking counter to it, but it has shown me enough promise to invest more time in development. I need to play at least a few more games to get a solid opinion.

[jsp4563]

I’m always looking for new German strategies, this one is intiguing…my concern would be opening up the baltic so early to allied naval landings (a real pain in the a**).

[Guest]

Sukcer the UK in early… while you still have lots of planes  :evil: